Hello, judges! Welcome to another installment of the Knowledge Pool. This week we have a Silver scenario, so please hold onto your answers until Friday if you are L2 or higher. Now that we have the formalities out of the way, here is the situation:

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/?p=1102

Alan and Nathan are playing in a Sealed GPT. Alan casts a Doomwake Giant, then attacks with a Vulpine Goliath. Nathan controls a Minotaur Skullcleaver, but chooses not to block with it. During his second main phase, Alan casts Gnarled Scarhide.

Alan looks at this hand for a few seconds, then says “Umm… I guess it's… WAIT!” He then reads Doomwake Giant again. “Your Skullcleaver dies.” Nathan calls you to the table and explains that the first trigger is missed, since it wasn't mentioned during first main phase or combat. When you ask Alan, he tells you he had completely forgotten about the Doomwake triggering itself until just then.

What do you do?

Edited Josh Stansfield (July 10, 2014 01:09:22 AM)

No infraction, no penalty. Alan mentioned the trigger the first time it
would visibly affect the game state. Explain it to the players, give time
extension if it took over one minute. The minotaur dies and instruct
players to keep playing.
9 lip 2014 20:05, “Joshua Feingold” <forum-11103-7b3f@apps.magicjudges.org>
napisał(a):
>
> Hello, judges! Welcome to another installment of the Knowledge Pool. This
week we have a Silver scenario, so please hold onto your answers until
Friday if you are L2 or higher. Now that we have the formalities out of the
way, here is the situation:
>
> Alan and Nathan are playing in a Sealed GPT. Alan casts a Doomwake Giant,
then attacks with a Vulpine Goliath. Nathan controls a Minotaur
Skullcleaver, but chooses not to block with it. During his second main
phase, Alan casts Gnarled Scarhide.
>
> Alan looks at this hand for a few seconds, then says “Umm… I guess it's…
WAIT!” He then reads Doomwake Giant again. “Your Skullcleaver dies.” Nathan
calls you to the table and explains that the first trigger is missed, since
it wasn't mentioned during first main phase or combat. When you ask Alan,
he tells you he had completely forgotten about the Doomwake triggering
itself until just then.
>
> What do you do?
>
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Even though Alan says he “forgot” the first trigger, part of what the Missed Trigger rules and procedures do is give a player a fair window of time for remembering a potentially missed trigger before it's too late. Alan did remember in time (nothing else happened to make it have a visible effect on the game and the duration of its effect hasn't yet expired), so that means the trigger wasn't missed. Skullcleaver is a 0/0 and goes to the graveyard. EDIT: As others have said, but I forgot to mention, it's worth educating the players on the details of when a trigger is officially considered “missed”.

No penalty, the game goes on, and the match gets any necessary extra time added to its limit.

Edited Michael Shiver (July 10, 2014 01:33:28 AM)

Even though Alan ‘forgot’ the first trigger, the first trigger isn't missed. Alan demonstrated awareness of the trigger the first time it would have an impact on the game state - i.e., when the resulting loss of toughness would be enough to kill the Minotaur.

No infraction, no penalty, no need to fix. The Skullcleaver dies, play on. It might be worth educating Nathan about missed trigger policy - i.e., that triggers are assumed to have happened until the game state is such that they must not have happened.

Alan did show awareness of the trigger(s) the very first moment it has an impact on the game by reducing the Toughness of Minotaur Skullcleaver to 0. Since there wasnt a game action where its necessary to point out the Power/Toughness of Nathan's creatures and Doomwake Giant triggered ability doesnt affect the game state in a visible way the player has to show awareness the first time it matters.

So there is no Infraction, no Fix for the game state and of course no penalty. I'm pretty sure it will be necessary to explain the Missed Trigger policy to both of them since the chances are high that Nathan want a better explanation then “Your creature dies”.

I guess I am struggling a little with this one. Why wouldn't it be a GPE - MT/ Warning? Per the IPG: A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack.

Alan cast a spell, Gnarled Scarhide. I am thinking I agree that he missed the first trigger. Convince me otherwise?

My thought it Alan receives a warning for GPE - MT.

Originally posted by Patrick Cossel:

I guess I am struggling a little with this one. Why wouldn't it be a GPE - MT/ Warning? Per the IPG: A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack.

Alan cast a spell, Gnarled Scarhide. I am thinking I agree that he missed the first trigger. Convince me otherwise?

My thought it Alan receives a warning for GPE - MT.

What change is there in visible game state, a creature's p/t is not part of the visible game state. Also it is not a generally determental trigger so even if he had missed it he shouldn't receive a warning.

I agree with the majority; no penalties, creature dies, and educate players on mt policy.

No infraction, no penalty. It's not needed to explicitly state P/T changes until they affect the board state, and this is the first time it's effected the board state. Educate the players on policy, and go on from there.

At first this seemed a clear no penalty no infraction, with the trigger being addressed as soon as it affected the game state.

However, the inclusion of the Vulpine Goliath and it's trample ability gives me pause about if I am correct in that. When does a P/T change first have an effect on the board state? If Vulpine Goliath attacked and Skullcleaver blocked, it would first have an effect during the damage step, when Vulpine would deal 5 damage. If Nathan had blocked and Alan said ‘take 4,’ it would have been missed. But since there was no block, it isn't relevant until it goes to 0 toughness and dies, hence it wouldn't be missed. Interesting.

So I'll stick with my first thought, no penalty, no infraction, Alan pointed out the trigger as soon as it had an effect on the board state. Inform Nathan and Alan of when a trigger is considered missed, send the skullcleaver to the graveyard, and add any necessary additional time.

Going to have to side with a majority here - Alan demonstrates awareness of the trigger at the 1st point it affects the game state, no warning, skullcleaver dies, play on, maybe consider a time extension if it took a long time to explain this to the players.

Had the vulpine been blocked this would have been a different kettle of fish but fact that the p/t of the minotaur skullcleaver has not been discussed this turn leads me to rule this way

Edited John Stanford (July 10, 2014 06:23:30 AM)

I'd rule that the Skullcleaver dies. I don't feel there is any infraction taking place. Alan doesn't have to acknowledge the trigger until it has a visible effect on the game state. Because Doomwake doesn't target Alan isn't responsible for saying anything until it has an effect that would involve the creature's power or toughness.

Even if the player didn't remember the first trigger at the time it didn't cause a visible change in gamestate until the second enchantment was cast and as such it wasn't a missed trigger. Explain the situation to both players, Skullcleaver dies.

Before reading comments:
I'd say no infraction here.
The first time anything visible changes is when the skullcleaver dies from the second trigger.
So even if he forgot about the trigger, from the IPG standpoint he remembered it just in time.
I would explain to the players why I see no infraction and have them play on.

After reading comments:
Nothing to add

The Doomwake Giant's trigger is a trigger that doesn't target or creates a visible change in the gamestate. The IPG tells us that such a trigger is not missed until as it has a visible impact on the gamestate. Since there was no point in the first main phase or the combat phase were the it would have mattered that the Skullcleaver is a 1/1 a visible change to the game state happens as soon as the second trigger resolves. Now Alan has to remember this before he takes another game action that would only be possible when the trigger already resolved. Passing the priority would be such a thing and it seems Alan was about to do it. However, there was no real indication he wants to and his thinking time is also irrelevant. He remembers both triggers in time. Besides it doesn't matter whether Alan has really forgotten the first trigger for a given time, as long as he remembers it in time to show awareness when it matters (which he did)

Therefore: No infraction, Skullcleaver dies and a short education about missing triggers that don't make a visible change to the gamestate immidiatly. I won't explain all the stuff about missed triggers at this moment because it takes to long in the middle of a match, but I would invite both of them to talk about it between the rounds.

Well, I don't think the Giant's ability had any visible effect on the game state, and he has not taken any game actions after playing the second enchantment. I'd say the minotaur hits the graveyard :)