I was playing/judging in a prerelease this weekend. At the end of a round when players were on turns, I saw two players have a discussion and then roll a die. I was pretty sure from what I saw and bits that I heard that they were rolling for a winner, but not certain. After interviewing them both, they said I was incorrect. I didn't have enough to go on so I had to let it go. The only person working at the store was a fairly new employee that doesn't have much experience running Magic.

Later, I was talking to good friend who plays there and to his girlfriend who used to work there. They both were pretty adamant that if I was going to DQ someone that I would need to call the store owner first. This raised quite a few questions in my mind. In the event that I was 100% certain someone improperly determined a winner, could the TO tell me not to DQ them? If this was to happen should I comply? Also, should I report it to someone if the TO overruled me in a serious matter like this?

I have good standing with the TO and I get to play FNM, prereleases, Monday Night Modern, etc for free with the understanding that I answer all judge calls and help keep the rounds moving. I feel he trusts me completely but he's not someone that you can predict will always see it your way.

I'm sure people more qualified will talk about the “official” answer to this.

Regardless of the rules, it is always a good idea to have open
communications with the Tournament Organizer about everything that
s/he would want to be aware of. At the same time, it is important to
keep in mind that the role of Tournament Organizer is very different
from the role of Judge. Regardless of what the DCI says, if a TO tells
me that I have to allow someone to continue in a tournament I am
HJing, I may have to respectfully tender my resignation. When I HJ an
event, I lend my personal credibility to it. My players know what to
expect when I am judging. As a player, I ask who the HJ is of big
events I go to. I know many others who take a similar view.

You are always working in partnership with a TO to run an event. It's definitely a good idea to keep the TO in the loop on any DQs, because of the effect they have. The TO is cultivating this player base and trying to provide service to the customers, and a DQ (especially a DQ for a reason that an inexperienced TO may not fully understand, such as a DQ for IDaW or for failing to call a judge on a bribe offer) runs the risk of damaging that. The potential for problems gets much worse at small Regular events like FNMs and prereleases where the TO does not fully understand the role of a Judge as anything other than “the guy who answers all the rules questions.”

The MTR has a few things to say about the HJ:

The Head Judge is the final judicial authority at any DCI-sanctioned tournament and all tournament participants are expected to follow his or her interpretations.

Also, in exceptional circumstances, if the tournament’s integrity would be damaged otherwise, the Tournament Organizer may replace the Head Judge.

In other words, the decision of a Head Judge to issue a Disqualification penalty is not appealable and is final. Formally and ultimately, a TO who took issue with that would have to replace the HJ. I would not recommend letting the situation escalate to that point; better to let an incorrect ruling be made (even about a DQ) than cause what will almost certainly be a big scene. If the TO actually does need to replace the HJ, something is very, very wrong.

If you have concerns about your authority as HJ, you should talk to the TO and try to help them better understand the relationship between the judges and the tournament staff. The judge is there to ensure that the rules are followed, and it's your duty as a certified judge in particular to see those rules applied fairly and correctly. If need be, explain to them that if they have a concern about the conduct of a judge, including the appropriateness of a penalty, then the best way to take that up is with the judge directly or, failing that, by submitting a complaint to the RC directly or with their WPN rep's help. These complaints are taken seriously by the RCs, and they will follow up if the situation warrants.

Similarly, if you have a concern with a TO (such as if a TO insists that you do not have the right to disqualify a player), you should contact your RC and they can ensure that the matter gets taken up with the TO.

Reading in between the lines, I have the idea that the TO thinks he needs to be informed in advance on matters like this. The first thing to do is check with your TO or the TO in question.

Explain him that you respect that he is concerned if it comes to DQs but that as a head judge you have the final say to things related in the event. From the smallest ruling to the a possible DQ, you are there trained to do the job. Explain him that he hires you to do that job and he should feel comfortable letting you do that job.

Explain him that you can discuss certain reasons of a DQ with him, but that mostly as a type of advice that is for him to know wether or not he wants to service that customer further that day or longer. In grave cases you should simply restrict him access to the playing area and in certain setups of stores that means we don't want him in the store.

During a Return to Ravnica PreRelease (I was not a Judge at the time) a boy swapped a shockland with another player, so that both of them could have a shockland fitting their own deck, and all the stuff was discovered a couple of rounds later. It was surely a DQ situation, but the TO insisted on forcing the drop on the players for “customer service” reasons – that is: he didn't want them to be DQed, suspended, etc… and prevent a possible loss of two frequent customers.

After becoming a Judge, I've had the impression that an indipendent tournament (say, a PTQ) has more freedom to DQ players rather than a local tournament (Regular events, or a GPT) where the TO is actively interested in keeping long-term customers in his shop.

(Exceptions apply for DQs on aggressive behaviour and such, of course; but that's quite a rare event.)

Originally posted by Stefano Ferrari:

During a Return to Ravnica PreRelease (I was not a Judge at the time) a boy swapped a shockland with another player, so that both of them could have a shockland fitting their own deck, and all the stuff was discovered a couple of rounds later. It was surely a DQ situation, but the TO insisted on forcing the drop on the players for “customer service” reasons – that is: he didn't want them to be DQed, suspended, etc… and prevent a possible loss of two frequent customers.

After becoming a Judge, I've had the impression that an indipendent tournament (say, a PTQ) has more freedom to DQ players rather than a local tournament (Regular events, or a GPT) where the TO is actively interested in keeping long-term customers in his shop.

(Exceptions apply for DQs on aggressive behaviour and such, of course; but that's quite a rare event.)

In the situation you described, the TO did DQ them. That's all that a DQ is a lot of the time: “you can't play this event any more”. A DQ doesn't mean you can't immediately sign up for a draft, unless it was serious enough that the TO asked the player to leave the venue altogeter.

To my (limited) knowledge, a suspension is only handed out if the infraction was very serious, or if there is a history of problems. Two young players who made a silly mistake which won't happen again is unlikely to warrant a suspension.

In general, if you are faced with the requirement to DQ a player, how you do it and phrase it can make a huge difference.

The JAR document outlines Serious Problems and is very clear about what cannot be tolerated. Personally, I recommend that judges working with TOs unfamiliar with judges and judge policy go over these and explain:

(a) Why they're bad and we can't tolerate them
(b) That the judge's hands are tied, and they need the TO to support their REQUIREMENT to DQ the player

As a local judge, you're really both a customer service representative from the TO/judge program to the players, and an advocate from the players/judge program to the TO. Share what you learn from the program in a constructive way.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

In general, if you are faced with the requirement to DQ a player, how you do it and phrase it can make a huge difference.

Absolutely.

I've recently had to DQ someone for IDaW and the phrasing that I used in explaining it to them was “I need to remove you from today's event to maintain the integrity of the tournament as a whole”

If your TO is uncomfortable with the term “disqualification” you can always use a less harsh way of saying it, especially at Prereleases where cultivating the returning customer is of utmost importance for both the Magic community and the business owner.

One of the main problems is an insufficient information for the player facing a DQ and probably the TO. I had that once when players came to me complaining about the fact that they got DQed without knowing anything. I (as TO) explained the reason calmly and they understood that a DQ is a needed Option of some Problems can't be fixed otherwise. If you use the same words when talking to your TO about the DQ (and you MUST tell him about it, the players are customers and if they stop to Play or buy, he won't Need any more judges), he will understand.

If you'd like to understand more about the consequences of a DQ, I'd recommend listening to episode 95 of JudgeCast where Eric Shukan discusses the ins and outs of the Investigations Committee.

http://judgecast.com/?p=691

I need to be very clear about something: the TO does not determine whether or not to DQ anyone.

The Head Judge determines when to remove a player from the tournament.
The TO determines when to remove a player from the venue.
Those two are often linked, but not always.

Example: the TO discovers a player selling cards, against the clearly stated policies. The TO may choose to escort that player out of the building. This is not an infraction, but when that player fails to show up for the next round, he'll receive Tardiness and be dropped by the SK. (If you learn of the removal ahead of time, you can drop that player before pairings, and save a bit of disruption.)

Example: you overhear a young player offer to flip a coin to determine a winner, and you have to DQ them. The TO talks to that player, tells them they feel bad because that player didn't know that rule, and offers them a free entry to a draft that's about to start. The player wasn't a threat, they just failed to learn a rule that we require every player to know. Good customer service by the TO.

Example: you investigate and determine that a player drew a few extra cards during a game, when his opponent was distracted, and then lied to you. You inform him that you will DQ him, and he goes ballistic, screaming expletives in your face. The TO and security staff restrain the player, and escort him out of the building.

But again, let me stress: a TO must not, can not, overrule a Head Judge who has determined that a DQ is the appropriate penalty.

d:^D

Hypothetical: HJ tells a player that he is DQ'd. Before the round ends the TO hears about it, disagrees, thinks it is a big deal, and removes the HJ. I become the new HJ.

If I disagree with the DQ (for whatever reason), is it within my power to overturn that DQ?

As TO you could reenter the player into the tournament.
The original HJ could still file a DQ report and let the Player Investigation committee judge who made the correct call.

Andy

From: William Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 4:30 PM
To: Heckt, Andy
Subject: Re: Can a TO override a DQ? (Tournament Operations)


Hypothetical: HJ tells a player that he is DQ'd. Before the round ends the TO hears about it, disagrees, thinks it is a big deal, and removes the HJ. I become the new HJ.

If I disagree with the DQ (for whatever reason), is it within my power to overturn that DQ?

——————————————————————————–
If you want to respond to this thread, simply reply to this email. Or view and respond to this message on the web at http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/post/71125/

Disable all notifications for this topic: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/11208/
Receive on-site notifications only for this topic: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/11208/?onsite=yes

You can change your email notification settings at http://apps.magicjudges.org/profiles/edit