Hello judges! I am coming to you through the power of the interwebs! We have a challenging SILVER scenario for you this week! What that means is that it requires knowledge and understanding of the IPG and applying that to the situation at hand. Level 2 and higher judges are asked to refrain from posting until Friday. Please remember that the purpose and goal of Knowledge Pool is to educate judges on the IPG and give an opportunity for those that are learning to discuss the topic. With that said, let's get on to the scenario!

Kataki To The Maternity Ward, Your Pod Is Waiting - SILVER

In a Modern GPT you are head judging, Andrew has a Kataki, War’s Wage, a Birthing Pod, and a Wall of Roots in play. He begins his turn by untapping and drawing for his turn. In his Main Phase, Andrew activates Birthing Pod by tapping two lands and sacrificing Wall of Roots. He begins searching his library. Before he has pulled a card out, his opponent Nathan stops him and says, “You forgot to pay for Kataki on your Birthing Pod.” Both players call for a judge. What do you do?

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/?p=1151

So, we have multiple issues stemming from one core issue- the failure to pay for kataki.

It is a detrimental trigger. We immediately resolve it with the default mode - sac.

Now the question is, should we rewind?

I'd rewind to just before pod was activated - so untap the land, return wall of roots to play. GPE- GRV for Andrew. Nothing for Nathan. No missed trigger warning because we have multiple issues stemming from a single issue. Remind both players to be more careful.

Generally detrimental missed trigger with a default action, apply the default action (saccing the Birthing Pod), apply GRV and FtMGS to the appropriate players (or double GRV, I can never remember which is double GRV and which is GRV/FtMGS), rewind to immediately before Pod was activated (shuffle the deck, if none of the cards are ordered).

Warning for detrimental trigger to Andrew.

Resolve the Kataki, War's Wage trigger with the default action, either the next time a player would receive priority or when a player would get priority at the start of the next phase. Nathan's choice.

No GRV as the Birthing Pod is infact in play and it's ability was legally activated, as this is just a missed trigger we do not backup.
Resume play.

Easy Part: GPE - Missed Trigger for Active Player. The trigger is detrimental, so they will receive a warning. As per IPG, apply the default option (sacrifice Birthing Pod).

Now, since AP is in the middle of resolving an activation of a Birthing Pod that shouldn't exist, it's tempting to attempt to give a GRV, especially since that gives you the option to rewind, and a rewind seems like a really lucrative option. However, we don't choose infractions for their fixes, and we can't apply fixes just because they feel right. AP did not make an error or break a game procedure by activating the Birthing Pod. Every action taken after the missed trigger was legal in the context of the gamestate, so I don't see any grounds for GRV. Let the activation resolve, ask the opponent when they would like to resolve the default option (now or at the next step/phase), and have them continue play.

There's another factor we need to considered before the remedy as stated above…

Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one may be Unsporting Conduct — Cheating (unless the ability would have no impact on the game as described above).

Analyze the situation as if Andrew is not intentionally ignoring the triggered ability. If there's obvious evident shows that Andrew is ignoring the triggered ability, it may be Unsporting Conduct - Cheating.

If not, we will let Nathan to choose whether the trigger is to be put on stack at Andrew's next priority. After resolving the birthing pod's activated ability, Kataki's ability is put on stack and default option is applied then sacrifice the birthing pod.

Andrew - GPE- Missed Trigger, Nathan - N/A

As Olivier stated, rewind is an possible option as the error is within a reasonable time frame that it is safely enough to back up the game to upkeep and put Kataki's triggered ability on stack. Of course, this will requires permission from the head judge.

Andrew - GPE - GRV, Nathan - N/A

I believe both solutions are possible remedies but personally I will check if rewind is possible to keep the game state as close to the suppose game state.

I believe that the first solution did not resolve the problem properly as it should be, also “A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution”. It fulfill the condition and anything afterwards should be treated as GPE-GRV. Do we apply both on Andrew?

Hey!

I'd like to share my opinion about this scenario.
It seems that Andrew commited a GPE-MT, forgotting the triggered ability of Kataki onto his Birthing Pod.
This TA is detrimental, and Andrew should be given a W.
To fix the situation, I would go to the default mode and sacrifice the Birthing Pod.
Then, the complicated part is to rewind or not.
As I think, I would let the activated ability of the Birthing Pod to stay on the stack.
If I were to rewind, it may be possible that going back to Andrew's upkeep is not very disruptive, so this sound as another possibility for me.

All the best!

I don't think we can give GPE-GRV here because this is only the catch-all infraction if we have a GPE without any other infraction. However we have GPE-MT here, so there is no reason to use the catch-all. Therefore I see no option to rewind because only GRV and CPV have a rewind.

My ruling would be GPE-MT Warning (because detrimental trigger) for Andrew and resolving it with the standard option (sacrificing the Pod) as soon as a player would gain priority or at the beginning of the next phase (opponent chooses). The Pod ability is still resolving and I would change nothing with this. Nathan had enough possibilities to remember the trigger (drawing a card and sacrificing the Wall, which both involves the moving of physical cards and Nathan should be able to say “stop” in the progress. So no fast play here) and while a player never needs to remember his opponent to do his triggers even if he knows about them, it is his own risk and we do not rewind for that.

So the core problem here is the missed trigger on the birthing pod from the Kataki. In this case, the fix is to take the default choice (sacrifice the pod) and let Nathan choose if the ability will be put on the stack when players next receive priority, or at the start of the next step/phase. GPE-MT for Andrew, since it is a detrimental trigger.

However, if I was called to this table, I'd be asking a few more questions. My main concern is if Nathan had an opportunity to stop Andrew and call a judge about the missed trigger after Andrew drew for the turn and activated his pod. That Andrew's library is in his hand isn't enough for me here–players very often resolve pod's ability quickly and out of order. Off the bat what I'm looking for:
-Did Andrew wait at all after drawing for turn and activating his pod?
-Did Andrew confirm with Nathan the pod activation & the ability resolving?
-Did Andrew play a land or take any other game actions before activating the pod?
-Is the sacrificed creature in the graveyard or still on the battlefield?
-Were life totals changed from the activation, or mana paid?

If the answer to all of these is no, I'd consider a rewind. Andrew shouldn't be able to rush through his turn to invalidate his detrimental missed trigger, even unintentionally. (After consulting with the head judge) In that case I'd follow the GRV guidelines, and back up the game to the illegal action–in this case the pod activation. Establish if there are any ‘known’ cards in Andrew's library before the pod activation, randomize the rest, then put the sac trigger on the stack in Andrew's main phase. No additional penalties, since the infraction stemmed from the missed trigger.

Edited Chase Culpon (Sept. 5, 2014 04:38:42 AM)

The root cause is fairly straightforward: Andrew gets a GPE-MT, with a warning since the trigger is generally detrimental. Nathan committed no infraction since he is not required to point out Andrew's missed triggers.

The fix is also straight from the IPG, although the timing is a bit tricky. Kataki's trigger is resolved with its default option. The pod is sacced, either the next time a player gets priority (i.e. after the pod's ability finishes resolving) or at the beginning of the next phase. Nathan's choice.

However, regardless of the choice Nathan makes, the pod's ability stays on the stack and finishes resolving normally. Andrew gets to search for his creature and put it on the battlefield.

I considered if OOOS may apply, but it can't. There was a draw step in between and that would give Andrew premature strategic information.

In short, Nathan was too late interrupting Andrew to prevent his pod's ability from resolving one last time.

It would be different if Nathan didn't have a chance to interrupt Andrew sooner, but I don't think that can be the case here. Since the trigger was missed, Andrew put a card in his hand (draw for the turn), tapped several lands, sacced a creature and started searching his library. That takes a while.

This is clearly a GPE-MT warning for Andrew since we're looking at a detrimental trigger. A number of people are looking at the possibility of a rewind but I can't find anything in the IPG that states a rewind is a suitable fix for a Missed Trigger.

Steps:
1) Nathan chooses to resolve the default action of the Kataki ability from Birthing Pod by saccing Birthing Pod either at the beginning of the next phase or as soon as a player resolves priority.
2) Andrew finishes resolving his Birthing Pod.
3) Assuming Nathan chooses ASAP, the Birthing Pod is sacrificed.



As an interesting side note as I'm reading people's responses. Kataki is not a card that will trigger. Technically the Birthing Pod is triggering with the ability given to it by Kataki.

Originally posted by Marc DeArmond:

Kataki is not a card that will trigger. Technically the Birthing Pod is triggering with the ability given to it by Kataki.

:-)

True, of course, but just calling it “Kataki's ability” is going to make this scenario a *lot* easier to discuss…

First item: It's a GPE: Missed Trigger, (detrimental), warning. Second thing, the trigger is going to go off with its default option–sacrifice the pod. The question: what can or should we do about the search? Presumably from the information given, the active player has already missed his upkeep trigger, drawn for the turn, activated pod, paid the costs, and is actively searching his library before his opponent says anything. Although this is competitive REL, we're at a GPT–not a GP day 2 or a PTQ. Presuming no malicious intent, the active player's actions up until that point were legal in the light of the missed trigger, and acting as the head judge as per the scenario I would back it up to the beginning of his main phase, give his opponent the choice of whether to have the trigger resolve immediately or at the start of the next phase, having returned the wall of roots and untapping the lands. The random portion of the active player's library is shuffled, and play can resume.

As an additional note, I would remind the active player that kataki grants his artifacts a triggered ability and that he is responsible for them, and needs to be careful to remember such triggers.

Were this a larger event with more on the line (PTQ, GP day 2, etc) I would opt instead to give the nonactive player the choice of resolving the trigger immediately or at the next phase, then have the pod activation resolve, as the IPG doesn't really give us a direction to back up in this situation and stricter adherence to the letter of the IPG is more important the larger the event.

Edited Michael Warme (Sept. 5, 2014 07:46:27 AM)

Originally posted by Michael Warme:

Although this is competitive REL, we're at a GPT–not a GP day 2 or a PTQ.

For clarity, and everyone's understanding:

• GPT - Competitive REL
  
• PTQ - Competitive REL
  
• GP Day 2 - Professional REL
  

(just saying…)

d:^D

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Michael Warme
Although this is competitive REL, we're at a GPT–not a GP day 2 or a PTQ.

For clarity, and everyone's understanding:

• GPT - Competitive REL
  
• PTQ - Competitive REL
  
• GP Day 2 - Professional REL
  

(just saying…)

d:^D

Yes, I was copy-pasta'ing and the rest of my response didn't go into the box, I had to edit with my reasoning. It seems to make a difference to me that we are in this situation the head judge of a much smaller tournament versus a floor judge at a larger event.