Hi everyone!

During a GPT, Norbert calls us ‘cause Adam has changed the postion of his permanents on the board, and now he’s unable to distinguish Adam's face-down creatures. This thing wasn't intentional.
This is surely a GRV, because A has not marked his morphed creature to make them distinguishable. But can we upgrade the penalty or not?

Thank for your answers and your kindness :)

Edited Jacopo Strati (Oct. 16, 2014 03:08:38 PM)

No GRV here. Norbert just needs to ask Adam to clarify which morph is which (i.e., what order did they enter the battlefield), and Adam is obligated to answer truthfully.

I'll just agree with Mr. Feingold. The rules *imply* keeping Morphs in order, but that's not what 707.6 actually says. Josh's response sums it up very nicely.

d:^D

I see, thank you for answering so quickly. :D
But how can we verify that A is telling the truth about this situation and he's not cheating? Isn't this situation a bit “border line” because we have no evidences about what's going on?
:)

Edited Jacopo Strati (Oct. 16, 2014 03:42:48 PM)

It's part of the player communication policy that they must tell the truth about free information. If you believe that they are not call a judge.

Ok but… How can we verify that they are really telling the truth about a situation in witch informations are totally hidden?

Edited Jacopo Strati (Oct. 16, 2014 04:00:59 PM)

The same way we verify that players are telling the truth about anything:
investigation and our judgment.

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jacopo Strati <
forum-13323-c3a1@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> Ok but… How can we verify that they are really telling the truth about a
> situation in witch informations are totale hidden?
>
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You have a choice do you believe the player? Yes, no harm no foul. No, remove from event for lying to a judge. You have to investigate and make a choice. We don't need exact 100% proof one way or the other.

Ok, thank you all for you help :D

Well said, folks - investigation is (a) a part of so much we do, yet (b) not the easiest skill to teach. Never hurts to ask questions like this!

I will say, it's unusual when the precise order of face-down permanents really matters. It's a bit of a shell game anyway - do I play my best one first, or 2nd, or 3rd? do I want my opponent to think I played my best one first? etc. Imagining a board state where I've played so many Morphs, and moved them around (while attacking or blocking, or just making my board look neat), and now I can't even remember which landed first … well, it's just not critical.

As others have said, players have to be honest. If a player says to me “I honestly don't remember - maybe this one was first, then that one next?”, I'm not going to worry about it.

Yes, I'm aware that someone out there can supply a scenario where it really does matter, OMG!!! - heh! - but in general, not a big deal. And the most important points in this discussion remain the same, anyway:
1) it's not a GRV if they mix up the order;
2) they need to answer as truthfully as they are able;
3) dishonest players should be shown the door.

d:^D

I don't get why this is not a GRV and you all seem to agree that no GRV occured here.

Here is CR 707.6 for reference:

707.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.

By rearranging his face-down creatures the player clearly violated this rule. He did not ensure that his face-down permanents can be easily differentiated from each other.

But they can, if you ask the player who owns them. Obviously we assume the player is telling the truth, if he's not, that's a whole different thing.

Yes, you can easily fix the game state, so I understand why we wouldn't upgrade the penalty (although this is not necessarily related). But the player did brake a game rule.

It's not an actual fix to make the situation fit rule 707.6 again. If all I (being the player) have to do is to ask my opponent, 707.6 hasn't been violated at all. No fix needed. Julien, I can totally your problem, but “easily differentiated” is a rather vague and subjective term and I'm not sure if we can enforce that in the way you imply.

Let's be practical with this. If there's a valid and practical way for both players to know the order of the morph permanents, 707.6 shouldn't be considered violated.

Edited Jasper König (Oct. 18, 2014 09:33:34 PM)

Ok, so if the player rearranges his face-down permanents and then cannot remember which creature entered he battlefield first, second, and so on, then it is a GRV?

The way I understood 707.6 was that the controller of the face-down permanents had to ensure that all players could at all times differentiate the face-down permanents. I just realized that the rule does not say that.