Before reading other responses:

So, this situation is definitely one worth investigating, given that the graveyard/exile distinction probably matters in Nadine's deck. That said, it's a knowledge pool scenario, so we can assume we've investigated and ruled out shenanigans.

Nadine was supposed to put her first Deathrite Shaman, and her most recent one, into exile, not into the graveyard. This is a Game Rule Violation for Nadine. The effect that should have put the Shaman into exile was controlled by Anna, who didn't make sure it got carried out correctly. This is a Game Rule Violation for Anna (in fact, the textbook example of a double-GRV). Both Anna and Nadine receive Warnings.

As an additional remedy, we have a partial fix of moving the most recent both Deathrite Shaman(s) directly from graveyard to exile.

The first Shaman is also a problem. However, the partial fix no longer applies, and I wouldn't want to rewind the scenario. The other Shaman stays in graveyard.

Remind the players to play carefully, and continue the game.


After reading other responses:

I had read on old version of the IPG, which still contained the ‘within a turn’ language. Both these cards can be moved with minimal disruption.

I hadn't considered issuing two infractions, even though clearly there's two separate errors here. I think I would issue two separate infractions. There's not a shared event that caused both errors, and the only shared ‘root cause’ is inattentiveness. I don't think this is similar to the heroic case, where a misunderstanding of the rules allowed a player to commit the same error multiple times.

What the “root cause” of any problem is depends on how far you take your Why-Why analysis of the issue. I was on board with 2 infractions for each player until I read this:

Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:

Missed the “root cause is the same” clause in the intro to IPG. Given that, I would only issue 1 double GRV, the common root cause being “Nadine doesn't know what StP does”.

If one or both players were paying close enough attention the first time this happened, the second time probably wouldn't have happened. The example from the Annotated IPG quoted earlier by Milan seems to specifically support Lyle's interpretation: “…such as players thinking Heroic triggers off abilities, and repeatedly using equipment to trigger Heroic”.

So we have two instances of that same GRV here committed by both players. IPG allows us to fix that game state by putting both Shamans in their proper places - exile zone. For the penalty, we need to decide what “root cause” means. Personally I agree with definition founded in Anotated IPG, so for me root cause there is not understanding Path to Exile or Anna not paying enough attention to how her spells are resolved. Therefore its only one warning for GRV for both players.

“Failure to Maintain Gamestate” to Anna for not calling out immediatly when the first Deathrite Shaman that should have been exiled, was put in the graveyard.
“Game Play Error” to Nadine for putting the Deathrite Shamans in the incorrect zone.

Penalties: Warning for both,
in case someone suspects Nadine acted in bad faith, an investigation should be started,
in case the decision is that Nadine committed the error intencionally to get an advantage, it's Cheating and she should be disqualified.

Remedy:
The first Deathrite Shaman i would probably keep on the graveyard, seen that too many actions may have ocurred since the first error. The second Deathrite Shaman should be moved to the exile zone.

Anna and Nadine have committed GPE – GRV. Warning for both.

I would partial fix this, with a minimal disturbance to the game, moving both DRS to exile. Ask players to play more carefully.

I would go with one GRV for both of them then i would put both Deathrite in the exile.

I think we are here in the situation where two errors have the same root. If one, two or ten turns happen between them does not matter to me. If it does how can we determine how far an error is from another to apply only one GRV? I guess we can have a lot of answers for this which could be bad for ruling consistency.

Warning for GRV for both players times two, one for each Shaman in the yard. These are two separate errors. Because the Shamans are in the wrong zone, known to all players, and the disruption from moving them would be small, I would move them to exile.

Regarding the “root cause” issue, it is my understanding that “root cause” in this context means “misplaying one card or effect in multiple ways” rather than “misplaying the same card or effect in the same way multiple times.”

Originally posted by Arthur Stifelman:

“Failure to Maintain Gamestate” to Anna for not calling out immediatly when the first Deathrite Shaman that should have been exiled, was put in the graveyard.

Since last update of IPG, it's no longer FTMGS for Anna but GRV. Check out last part of GRV in latest IPG

Edited Bartłomiej Wieszok (Oct. 16, 2014 03:21:23 AM)

To me, there are 2 GRV for each players, but as both GRV has the same “root cause”, i would give only 1 warning to each player and ask them to be more careful.
I would apply the partial fix and put the last shaman in exile zone right now, for the first one, i would look at the state of the game and determine if moving it from graveyard to exile zone is a big disruption of the game, but i think in most of the case (if not all of them) i would put the shaman in exile zone.

I know “if” are not a good thing in KP, but if we give 2 warning for the 2 GRV, should we give a double game loss if players had incorrectly resolved the StP 3 times in the game ? I don't think that's the philosophy of the “upgrade” of a penalty.

For fixing the game state, moving both Deathrite Shamans to exile is sufficient.

I'd give both of them a Warning for GRV, since Anna cast the StP, and Nadine moved the Shamans to the wrong zone.

I'm confident that the “same root cause” applies, not only because of the “bestow trigger”-example in the annotated IPG, but also because of the meaning the warning carries. It is an official reminder to remember how a certain situation works. Which in my understanding means, that we remind the players that Swords to Plowshares exiles creatures.

Not to move too far away from the original topic, but for those who think there should be two GRV warnings each, please think about the following situation for a second: Would you give two warnings and a gameloss for a Curse of the Bloody Tome that has been around for three rounds and the cards were put into exile instead of into the graveyard? (I do realize that this example only involves one card, but if it was one turn and three Curses, would that be different?) There's no need to answer this thought, there's probably enough material for discussing the original example.

If same root cause means both: 1) literally the same (like illegally enchanting a creature with


Tin Street Market then drawing a card with the ability) and 2) same TYPE of root cause like in this KP example (though the scenario doesn't specify what exactly exiled the first DRS), then yes, I agree that it's double GRV only once. Though not saying what exiled that first DRS might be intentional who knows. I will be curious what the official answer will be.

Subject: Re: Elfalfa - SILVER (Knowledge Pool Scenarios)
From: forum-13291-06f4@apps.magicjudges.org
To: fejer.istvan@outlook.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 15:16:17 +0000

For fixing the game state, moving both Deathrite Shamans to exile is
sufficient.

I'd give both of them a Warning for GRV, since
Anna cast the StP, and Nadine moved the Shamans to the wrong
zone.

I'm confident that the “same root cause”
applies, not only because of the “bestow trigger”-example
in the annotated IPG, but also because of the meaning the warning
carries. It is an official reminder to remember how a certain
situation works. Which in my understanding means, that we remind the
players that Swords to Plowshares exiles creatures.

Not to
move too far away from the original topic, but for those who think
there should be two GRV warnings each, please think about the
following situation for a second: Would you give two warnings and a
gameloss for a Curse of the Bloody
Tome that has been around for three rounds and the cards were put
into exile instead of into the graveyard? (I do realize that this
example only involves one card, but if it was one turn and three
Curses, would that be different?) There's no need to answer this
thought, there's probably enough material for discussing the original
example.

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I too am on the path that the root cause of this issue is the same.

GRV for both players, remind the players to play more carefully and that both are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the game state and resolving spells correctly. Move both DRS to exile and continue.

Edited Justin Murphy (Oct. 17, 2014 11:33:45 AM)

Originally posted by Bartłomiej Wieszok:

Since last update of IPG, it's no longer FTMGS for Anna but GRV. Check out last part of GRV in latest IPG

Point of order: the IPG update didn't change this, and the Path to Exile example has been there for some time. The July update reworded 2.5 for clarity, but it wouldn't have affected this scenario either way.

I feel like the term “root cause” is a bit subjective here.

There are two possibilities:

1) The root cause is that AP and NAP didn't know that StP exiled instead of destroying.
2) The root cause is that AP and NAP forgot to exile DRS when StP resoloved.

If we choose 1, then the root cause is the same.
If we choose 2, then the root cause looks the same, but it is two instances of the same mistake.

It's definitely a double GRV warning for each case, the only question is whether we apply one or two penalties (warnings) to each player. The answer to that one is something I'm not entirely sure of, but If I encountered this on the floor I'd issue both players a warning with a reminder/teaching moment to be more careful with these types of situations, particularly the player who controls/owns the deathrite shamans as failing to correctly resolve swords to plowshares could be grounds for a cheating investigation at some point.