Magic Judges Forum / Regular REL / Intentionally forcing a draw...

Claus Nielsen · Oct. 18, 2014 08:33:16 PM

Hey guys…

I had a complicated situation earlier today…
A little background is probably needed… :D

On saturdays in my local shop we play 6 rounds of Modern with a prize payout to top 4 + everybody that ends on the same score as the 4th place…

It's the last round, and table 1 is still playing with under 5 min to go of the round… All other results are in, so player A, can see (He runs the tournament) that his prize payout is gonna be bigger if he draws, than if he wins or loses.

He's talking out in the room, that it doesn't make sense for him, not to do anything but draw the game.
As an inpartial spectator (I would go into prizes if the match ends with anything OTHER than a draw) he has the clear advantage on the board, but he ends up, playing for the draw…

Now! Reading paragraph 2.4 in the tournament rules…. I'm not sure as to concider this an incentive to draw or am I being paranoid?

I'd appreciate all feedback :)
//Claus

Dan Milavitz · Oct. 18, 2014 08:48:02 PM

Is anyone actually offering him anything to draw the game? If it's just how prize payouts randomly work that he gets more packs if he draws than if he wins, nothing is wrong with letting him play for the draw, so long as he isn't stalling (see the IPG, but basically as long as he isn't playing slowly to intensionally waste time, he's good).

Sam Sherman · Oct. 18, 2014 09:04:49 PM

When this type of situation comes up, it's time to reevaluate your prize
structure.
On Oct 18, 2014 6:28 PM, “Claus Nielsen” <

Claus Nielsen · Oct. 18, 2014 09:07:44 PM

Originally posted by Dan Milavitz:

No, HE wasn't offered, but I just thought the whole situation as a little “fishy” :P

He wasn't over-the-top stalling, but he didn't play his normal tempo.

Thales Bittencourt · Oct. 18, 2014 09:22:36 PM

I believe that if he didn't play his normal tempo, he was playing slowly.
In this scenario, it is highly probable that he was stalling.

In any case, I agree with Sam. Putting the players in this kind of
situation (I get more by drawing, instead of winning) may be not desirable
for the game, for the store, and for the play community.

–
Thales
L3, Brazil

2014-10-18 23:08 GMT-03:00 Claus Nielsen <

Eric Paré · Oct. 18, 2014 10:10:43 PM

Originally posted by Claus Nielsen:

Reading paragraph 2.4 in the tournament rules…. I'm not sure as to concider this an incentive to draw

Hello Claus :) It is okay if a player makes game plays and strategy decisions that lead to a draw. If one player notices that he or she gets more prizes if he or she draws instead of wins/loses, we do not consider that as an incentive that's against the rules.

But there are clear exceptions here. As Dan and Thales already explained, the player is NOT allowed to make a draw happen by playing slower or stalling so the opponent has less time to play.

Also, he or she can't make a draw happen by offering anything to the opponent or asking for anything from them. Bribery is the kind of incentive that the Magic rules do not allow.

Jonas Drieghe · Oct. 20, 2014 05:34:08 AM

Originally posted by Dan Milavitz:

… see the IPG …

Dan, why would we consider the IPG at Regular REL?
The JAR clearly specifies as a General Unwanted Behavior:

Players taking unreasonable amounts of time sideboarding or making play decisions.

In my opinion we should focus on educating the player that deliberately playing at a slow pace to force a draw is by no means allowed.

In any case, how a player can get more prizes by drawing than by winning is beyond my comprehension and maybe this is a situation that shouldn't generally occur? :)

Simon Ahrens · Oct. 20, 2014 06:11:43 AM

This actually sounds a bit fishy to me. Could you recall the standings?
It is just that I assume he is playing for first place if he is playing at table one. I, furthermore, assume if he draws he is in first place and his oponent would be second instead of forth and that fewer people would have the same amount of points as the person in forth place. This would mean the price pool gets split between less people.
I would say this behaviour is not nice but okay for a player, if the system allows it why shouldn't you try to maximize your prizes.
I do, however, have a problem with it because he is doing this as the TO because his priority should not be the short gain but the satisfied customers that want to return without the feeling of getting cheated by the TO.

In any case you should listen to Sam's advice and try to get a different price distribution or not giving players/ the TO access to the results of the other matches.

Kaylee Mullins · Oct. 20, 2014 12:25:38 PM

Players are not required to attempt to win the game. There is nothing wrong with him playing for a draw if it benefits him. Players are required to play at a reasonable pace though. If he is intentionally playing slowly to draw out the game then that is not OK. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with this. I agree with everyone else that the TO should reconsider the prize structure if it can lead to situations like this.

Edward Bell · Oct. 22, 2014 08:06:03 AM

I put this at the same level as that Elixir of Immortality deck from Standard a short while back - it has a strong incentive to only win as it goes to time rather than allow for the opponent to sideboard and possibly race out games 2 and 3.

Effectively I recall reading about a player getting a warning for not finishing off their opponent with 20+ Elspeth, Sun's Champion soldier tokens and being told to swing for the win, even though the deck would prefer to wait until time is called - swing, win and take the 1-0.

I disagreed with the ruling as I don't suspect a player can be forced to go for the win, and that would apply in this case.

But I agree with the comments that suggest that there's probably something wrong with the prize structure if a draw is a better result than a win.

James Winward-Stuart · Oct. 22, 2014 08:31:39 AM

Originally posted by Edward Bell:

Effectively I recall reading about a player getting a warning for not finishing off their opponent with 20+ Elspeth, Sun's Champion soldier tokens and being told to swing for the win, even though the deck would prefer to wait until time is called - swing, win and take the 1-0.

I disagreed with the ruling as I don't suspect a player can be forced to go for the win, and that would apply in this case.

There may have been more to the situation than you've included in your summary, but from what you've said there, you are correct and that ruling was wrong - a player in that situation is absolutely not required to attack if they don't want to.

Hao Ye · Oct. 22, 2014 02:55:08 PM

Originally posted by Simon Ahrens:

This actually sounds a bit fishy to me. Could you recall the standings?
It is just that I assume he is playing for first place if he is playing at table one. I, furthermore, assume if he draws he is in first place and his opponent would be second instead of forth and that fewer people would have the same amount of points as the person in forth place. This would mean the price pool gets split between less people.

I don't understand this either. By definition, one will obtain more match points from a win than a draw, and one's opponent will obtain fewer match points from a loss than a draw. Therefore, the player who plays to a draw will obtain at least as high a rank by winning instead, and the opponent will have at best an equal rank (probably lower) by losing instead.

I can only imagine 2 possible situations where this behavior is “rational”:
(1) If the two players are friends and a draw allows both to obtain more total packs than otherwise.
(2) If the top prize has fewer packs (due to it including byes as a GPT or special prizes that the player does not care for).

In the case of (2), I agree with Sam Sherman's comment about re-evaluating the prize structure…

Edited Hao Ye (Oct. 22, 2014 02:56:00 PM)

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