Yesterday I was judging a Modern Premiere IQ at an SCG Open (Competitive REL). I sat down between two matches to watch for a bit, and the game to my left soon ended. Then I heard one of the players say, “You suck,” to his opponent while they were side boarding. He didn't sound angry—just a bit annoyed at having lost the game. Upon investigation, I found out that they're friends who play together a lot at home, nobody's feelings were hurt, and the player knew to not say something like that to an opponent he doesn't know.

At the time, I didn't feel comfortable giving a strict penalty, and ended up just having a conversation and giving a caution. I still feel as though anything stronger than a Warning would have been more than was deserved. I've since asked two L2s on facebook, and I've gotten different answers. The first friend ended up saying he would feel really bad about it, but thinks policy says it's USC-Major and gets a ML. He cited the line, “It's possible for an offender to commit this infraction without intending malice…” The second friend says that, while it's targeted and offensive, it isn't based on anything (such as race, weight, religion, etc.), and they were joking, so it isn't USC and there shouldn't be a penalty. He also says that USC-Minor would be if he said that to a random opponent. The first friend points out that the line about basing insults on things starts with, "This may include insults based on race, color, …" (emphasis added), and thinks that it can be Major without including those insults.

So I ask the masses, what do you do if you hear friends casually telling each other they suck while at an event?

The goal of USC—Major is not to prevent absolutely every sort of insult or demeaning statement. We have both verbal cautions and Warnings for USC—Minor in situations that don't step up to the level of Major. If we over-police, especially with a penalty as severe as a Match Loss, we will both create a very paranoid and unnatural play environment and cheapen the message that USC—Major is intended to send: “This sort of behaviour is not welcome here.”

If we look at the definition of USC—Major, the bar is set fairly high:

A player takes action towards one or more individuals that could reasonably be expected to create a feeling of being harassed, threatened, bullied, or stalked.

These feelings are not simple feelings of being insulted. These are big feelings, where they start to draw a major emotional response from the victim. It's also not enough that someone, somewhere, might be seriously offended or hurt. I'll quote the Annotated IPG on this one:

Similarly, a generic comment that merely annoys or offends another person is not necessarily sufficient for USC—Major. Again, what’s important here is whether or not the action could reasonably create feelings of being harassed, threatened, bullied, or stalked.

Your friend is right both that it's possible to commit the infraction without intended malice, and that insults against identifiable groups are not required. I am not convinced that, on its own, a comparatively minor comment like “You suck”—especially one without much vitrol—is deserving of being put in the same class as someone violating someone else's space or throwing slurs around.

A simple “you suck” certainly doesn't seem like a big deal to me, especially if the general tone is a bit jovial. In this case I don't think I would do anything more than give a caution either, unless it becomes a pattern of behaviour. But I've found that it's sometimes too easy to dismiss something like this as ‘just between friends’.

First, just because the other player says he's fine with it, he may actually not be fine with it. He may feel uncomfortable, but also feel an unspoken pressure to accept it as if it didn't bother him, for fear of being socially rejected by his peers.

Second, it's not really ‘just between friends’. If it was just between friends, I would never have found out about it because it would have stayed between friends. But at an event, it's almost impossible to make sure that nobody else happens to overhear it. Somebody else heard it. Either I did, or somebody else did and alerted me. Otherwise I wouldn't be involved.

So yeah, in this case, not really a big deal in my opinion, but I don't let the “it's just between friends” argument have a lot of weight in the discussion.

Ernst, when you say that you wouldn't have heard about it were it “just between friends”, do you mean that “just between friends” means that the information is kept to friends, or that the people in the conversation were all friends? I only heard about it because I was sitting right next to the player who said it. I doubt otherwise that anyone would have brought it to me. Certainly, things like this should stay between friends as in not letting knowledge of it leave the friend group, but that would mean it's practically impossible to have anything like this stay between friends when said at an event.

“Just between friends” isn't a valid get out of jail free for many reasons:
* When you get away with it with old friends you might try it out with new
friends or strangers. These new people may not like it but still feel like
they can't (or don't know they should) speak up about it. So when ever
inappropriate behaviour happens we need to be on top of it.
* Other people can and do over hear, those people's feelings matter as does
their impression of what is acceptable.
* Friends commonly insult each other, some times they are both okay with
this and are both enjoying it. Other times one of them isn't happy with it
and if they were rational beings they would have left the friendship long
ago. In the end we don't care and have set guidelines on what we consider
to be acceptable behaviour in tournaments.

All that said, “You suck” is very very minor. It is no where near the
threshold for USC-Major. I'd have a hard time putting it into the USC-Minor
basket. Due to years of bad conditioning I'd probably let it slide without
the slightest flicker of interest. If I thought about it properly I'd just
want to interject a request to them to keep things civil and to voice their
complaints in a more mature manner, but this would be in a friendly and
jovial manner with no threat or mention of future infractions.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Pi Fisher <
forum-13436-0811@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> Ernst, when you say that you wouldn't have heard about it were it “just
> between friends”, do you mean that “just between friends” means that the
> information is kept to friends, or that the people in the conversation were
> all friends? I only heard about it because I was sitting right next to the
> player who said it. I doubt otherwise that anyone would have brought it to
> me. Certainly, things like this should stay between friends as in not
> letting knowledge of it leave the friend group, but that would mean it's
> practically impossible to have anything like this stay between friends when
> said at an event.
>
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–
Gareth Pye
Level 2 Judge, Melbourne, Australia
Australian MTG Forum: mtgau.com
gareth@cerberos.id.au - www.rockpaperdynamite.wordpress.com
“Dear God, I would like to file a bug report”

Originally posted by Pi Fisher:

Ernst, when you say that you wouldn't have heard about it were it “just between friends”, do you mean that “just between friends” means that the information is kept to friends, or that the people in the conversation were all friends?

The former.

Originally posted by Pi Fisher:

Certainly, things like this should stay between friends as in not letting knowledge of it leave the friend group, but that would mean it's practically impossible to have anything like this stay between friends when said at an event.

Yes. What you say at an event should generally be considered public, because unless you walk out of the room to a private place, everything you say can be overheard by other players, by spectators, or by tournament officials like us. So that means players who are friends can't apply their own private social norms to their conversations. Players need to take into account the social norms that are set by the tournament as a whole, which means venue rules and MTR/IPG/JAR as appropriate.

If players want to have a private conversation that's just between friends, they need to actually make it a private conversation away from the event. Then they can tell each other they suck as much as they want. But not at the table, because there it's “just between friends and everybody else in the room”.

“Between friends” has almost no bearing on USC, imho. To cite the philosophy of USC-Minor:

“All participants should expect a safe and enjoyable environment at a tournament, and a participant needs to be made aware if his or her behavior is unacceptable so that this environment may be maintained.”

Even relatively tame comments like “you suck” can contribute negatively to the play environment, even if nobody is immediately hurt by them.

When players try to argue with “but we're friends”, I tell them that a neighbour-table doesnt know this. Now, one of the neighbours also tells his opponent “you suck” and is penalized for that. He saw it un-penalized and repeated the behavior, but now is personally penalized for that. Overall, that doesnt feel fair for him.

I see nothing wrong with a single friendly “you suck”. I don't believe it matters who overhears it, considering the phrase “you suck” is in PG movies.

I would treat it as less severe than a single friendly “fuck you” said to a friend, and that's not even USC-Minor. USC-Minor covers excessive vulgarity, and a single F-bomb doesn't cross that threshold.

For a single friendly “you suck”, no infraction, not even a finger wag. Context does matter.
If someone complains, I am also comfortable saying that I don't see a reason to tell the players to clean up their language.
My ex mother in law felt words like “butt” and “fart” were obscenities on par with the “seven dirty words”. Family outings with her were miserable because you had to constantly watch what you said or get a lecture. Being that strict at events will also creates an oppressive atmosphere where players are unable to be themselves and are fearful that what they might say would get them in trouble. Having one person be overly strict and bullying everyone to conform to their standards is just as bad as one person being overly obscene and making everyone uncomfortable.

There is a balance you need to strike and a friendly “you suck” falls firmly on the side of “no action required”

-Bryan

———————————————
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Bryan, I am surprised by your response that one player saying “fuck you” to another player in a public tournament venue would illicit 0 action from you as a judge. Even if the two players are friends, even if there is a “friendly tone”, the phrase “fuck you” carries so much directed hostility and malice loaded into it, I think the majority of people would associate that phrase more with getting punched in the face or spit on then they would associate it with good times with friends. I don't think any amount of friendly tone could completely remove the baggage that comes with that phrase for a lot of people. I agree that we shouldn't be going after people for dropping the ocassional cuss word, but there are certain phrases that I think when combined with curse words, even in a “friendly” tone, shouldn't be condoned. WOTC wants sanctioned tournaments to be a place where anyone can come and feel safe and welcome, not just for the player that plays there every week and knows everyone, but also for the player that's there for the first time and doesn't know anyone, and I don't think hearing other players throw insults at each other creates those feelings.

Of course I don't I think a Match Loss is appropriate for either “you suck” or “f— you” if it is known that it is between friends and no one is being directly harassed, but I do think a simple “hey guys, let's keep it civil for the sake of the rest of the people at this event” is both reasonable and warranted to show other players (who might be playing in their first event or even their first game!) that table talk like that is not encouraged and there is someone at the event keeping their eye on things.

Edited Kainoa Pestana (Oct. 22, 2014 02:28:10 PM)

Context is important. If I say “fuck you” with a chuckle and smile on my face because you just called me out for a bad play, am I coming across as aggressive? Rude?

I for one often associate that phrase with good times with friends, particularly rowdy adult friends. So use your discretion tone it down as necessary.

The Nth (maybe first?) time they say it I may say something just because of how ignorant and annoying it can sound may affect the comfort level of those around them. Be conscious of the body language of others. If you sense that others are getting bothered, talk to people.

YMMV

Edit- noticed this is “Competitive”. Even so, let's accommodate some degree of fun here.

Edited Evan Cherry (Oct. 22, 2014 03:02:40 PM)

I said a single friendly ‘You suck’ should illicit no response from a judge. I said it was less than a “single friendly fuck you” and thats not USC-Minor. You are making a leap that perhaps I didnt mean to make. I did not say what I would do with a “single friendly ‘fuck you’”; only what I would do with a single friendly “you suck”

Not being an infraction is not the same as ‘not worth saying anything about’. I wouldnt say anything about a single friendly ‘You suck’. I dont need to. It doesnt cross the “reasonable” threshold. I might step in and give a finger wag on a single friendly ‘fuck you’ depending on the venue, but never a penalty. Neither meet the guidelines for a USC-Minor penalty, and we shouldnt stretch the penalty to include things it doesnt. It would have to be ‘excessive’ or have some heat to it to merit a penalty.

Magic is a game for Ages 13+. It says so right on the package. I have no problem allowing language that is in PG-13 movies used in the quantity they are used in that movie.

Again, I qualified the “fuck you” statement with the words “single” and “friendly”. Its pretty clear by tone and context the difference between something hostile and something friendly. I can tell the difference between a player saying something with the intent of punching someone in the face, and when someone jokingly expressing frustration at something a friend did, and I reject the notion that you cant, and I reject the notion that others cant either. Thats a pretty big divide, and I was pretty explicit as to which side I was on.

If someone is excessively swearing or insulting, sure, step in, correct it, give penalties (the correcting it part is actually much more important than the penalty part), if they swear repeatedly over the course of an event…sure step in, correct it . But a single F-bomb said to a friend in a friendly manner, unless the TO has a strict no-curse word, I dont get involved.

It's difficult to talk about this in the abstract because context and tone of voice matter so much in this. But I can't really imagine overhearing a player saying “fuck you” to another player and just moving on without comment.

Not every “fuck you” deserves a USC-Major, but I *will* get involved tot put a stop to that in one way or another. A little pre-emptive education can prevent a whole lot of USC drama.

Thanks for clarifying your post for me Bryan, I was under the impression that you wouldn't bat an eye at players that were friends saying “f— you” at each other because it's normal for them, not thinking how it might affect the players around them who might not realize that they are more than just opponents paired against each other. I absolutely agree that neither example in this thread, in the given context, warrants a USC penalty, but I do think in both cases a judge should coax the players away from this kind of joking, if only to show the other players at the event that judges don't condone that type of thing between opponents at an event.

Imagine a player with less than perfect social skills is at an event for the first time, and hears two otherwise quiet players at the other end of the table say while shuffling “you suck” and then “f— you dude”, not realizing they are both good friends and not noticing that are both smiling at their in-joke, all while a floor judge calmly walks by without a word (since he knows the context, can better grasp their tone of voice and see the smiles), and that player thinks to himself “wow, I guess it's okay to cut loose on my opponents, no need to hold back if the judges don't care, maybe it will give me an edge/boost my confidence/help me fit in/etc.”. Then when he gets a USC Infraction for saying the exact same things to a random opponent, cites those two players and that judge as precedent, and says “how was I supposed to know they were friends?”, does that seem fair?

I have seen the above situation happen several times in real life, granted not in Magic but in other social situations. A lot of people take their social cues from the people around them and when people join a new social group, they often fall into the social trap of mimicking those around them and commit a faux pas, not realizing that they have to first earn the group's trust before they can act that way. I know this might seem like a corner case, but instead of creating a social minefield for people to have to navigate through of who it is and isn't okay to jokingly insult, I think it's best to just nip this all in the bud by simply setting a reasonable standard of discourse at tournaments for everyone (IE don't personally insult your opponent, not unreasonable I think), and reminding players (diplomatically) when they have fallen outside of that basic standard.

Edited Kainoa Pestana (Oct. 22, 2014 05:16:05 PM)

The letter of the rules is relatively easy to read. But the question that we must ask ourselves is “what is in keeping with the spirit of the rules?”

With every action I take at a tournament, whether it be giving a ruling, answering questions or just walking around, I ask myself, “what is my purpose here and is what I'm doing helping to fulfill that purpose?” My purpose at any event is to make the event run more smoothly and to make the atmosphere as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible. I can't please everyone, nor do I try. But I try to make sure that the feel of the event is as pleasant as possible for the greatest majority of people. So I come across two friends playing. One says something relatively inoffensive to the other (because if you're offended by “you suck”, you need to just stay at home). I hand that player a match loss. I have not improved the quality of the tournament for anyone. I have pissed off two people, two paying customers, who will now think twice about coming back for another competitive tournament at this location. I have not fulfilled my purpose. I have not made the tournament run more smoothly (Magic wasn't decided by a game of Magic). I have not engendered respect and goodwill towards the Judge Program. What I have done is exactly the opposite.

I know that judges like to play the ‘what if?’ game, especially when having discussions about off-the-wall situations that come up. But rather than saying “what if a nearby spectator is offended?”, let's say “what if this player is not comfortable in their tournament environment unless they're allowed to call people offensive names?” Do we have a responsibility to this lone soul who cannot go an hour without blasting someone? No. We have a responsibility to the majority. Inclusiveness is a respectable goal, up to a point. That goes both ways. If the majority of tournament attendees are comfortable with a given level of trash talking, I feel no obligation to clean things up for the few outliers who are so sensitive that a misplaced word gives them crippling nightmares. What I do feel is a responsibility to create the best environment possible for the majority of attendees and this is not created by a Gestapo environment any more than it is by one full of bigotry.