Originally posted by CR 707.6:
707.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
Originally posted by Sean Hunt:Actually that is exactly what it does.
This rule does not require players to actively ensure that their opponents can differentiate between them.
Originally posted by Sean Hunt:I think you are right, but that is not the point. The point is that the way the rule is worded, shuffling up your morphs is a GRV.
I cannot imagine a scenario where there is a material difference that can't be sorted out by Adam looking at the cards and answering the question.
Edited Joshua Feingold (Oct. 29, 2014 08:51:00 AM)
Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:
Generalizing from this, since I am allowed to rearrange my morphs to declare blocks, I am also allowed to rearrange my morphs for other reasons. However, since my opponent must be able to easily differentiate my morphs, I must answer his question any time he cares about which morph is which.
Originally posted by Julien de Graat:I don't feel that's either accurate or fair; I did provide an ‘O’fficial comment - two of 'em, in fact - and Josh Feingold has again provided an in-depth explanation.
this topic here just died without an actual explanation of why it is not.
Dan CollinsNo, but it could be a Communication Policy Violation if you forget the order in which your Morphs arrived.
isn't it true that your opponent has the right to verify the legality of your statements about which morph is which
Originally posted by Julien de Graat:
So, basically everyone is saying that whatever the CR says, because the order is irrelevant and if it is, the opponent can just ask, we don't care. I mean, I'm fine with this not being a GRV, I just don't think it is supported by the CR. And noone has answered the actual question of how the actual text of the CR supports the policy.
Originally posted by Brian Schenck:I don't see where I was being “unfair” and I certainly didn't mean to be unfair or anything. I was just paraphrasing in a way that would make people stop ignoring the topic. Some people might find this rude or “unfair”, but it certainly wasn't meant to be.
I don't think anyone, especially Joshua or Scott, have said that. Let alone implied that. I think that is very unfair.
Originally posted by Brian Schenck:The funny thing is we are always told to read the IPG in a very technical fashion, to take everything literally. And we shouldn't do that with the CR? Honest question.
I think the point being made is that CR 707.6 is being approached in too technical a fashion, and that it would be wise to take a step back and consider the functional and practical applications of the rule to “real Magic” and what we expect of the players here.
Originally posted by Brian Schenck:As I said earlier, I'm fine with the interpretation that shuffling your face-down permanents is not a GRV. I would just like to understand why it is not considered an infraction. In my opinion, calling it irrelevant, while not being a very good argument when discussing rules text, is also not correct.
Does the controller need to ensure the face-down creatures can be “differentiated” from each other? Yes. But is re-ordering multiple face-down creatures, on its own, a GRV? No. I'd suggest a higher standard here, especially at ensuring the enforcement of relevant elements of the game.
Originally posted by Julien de Graat:
The funny thing is we are always told to read the IPG in a very technical fashion, to take everything literally. And we shouldn't do that with the CR? Honest question.
Originally posted by Julien de Graat:
As I said earlier, I'm fine with the interpretation that shuffling your face-down permanents is not a GRV. I would just like to understand why it is not considered an infraction. In my opinion, calling it irrelevant, while not being a very good argument when discussing rules text, is also not correct.
707.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
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