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Competitive REL » Post: Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

Oct. 26, 2014 11:58:44 PM

Darcy Alemany
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

None

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

Originally posted by Adam Zakreski:

You can always bolster the position of holding A to his actions by taking him aside and having a conversation…

“So you were going to cast Savage Punch?”
“Yes.”
“And now you don't want to?”
“No.”
“Why?”

Now he has two options…
“Well… he has a counterspell.”
“Okay, can you see how I'd have a problem with letting you take the spell back now?”

…or lie.
*insert other conversation here*
He could also have a good reason. For example, Savage Punch has the additional effect of giving the creature +2/+2. Maybe he wants to use a different removal spell this turn and use the punch to kill his opponent next turn.

Oct. 27, 2014 10:16:32 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

While he might have a “good reason”, we still don't do “take-backs” in Competitive REL events. “We” being the Judges - if an opponent allows a take-back, that's his or her choice, and we'll probably never hear of it.

d:^D

Oct. 31, 2014 03:27:48 AM

Edward Bell
Judge (Uncertified)

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

At what point do we talk about ‘take-backs’.

Locally the judges have kind of resorted to a chess type situation for lands being played - i.e. as long as your hand is still on the land you can pull it back and play another. As soon as you remove your hand you've committed to the land drop.

A similar situation is applied for spells - most usually permanents. A player puts a spell down, and then picks it up and it never leaves contact with the hand. (Often it's helpful for players to see the card on the field before deciding against it - even though this gives the opponent information they may not have).

I'm not sure it's official policy - but it seems to work.

Any thoughts?

Oct. 31, 2014 04:41:25 AM

Justin Miyashiro
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

The danger of that policy is that it gives the player a window to read
their opponent's reaction to the card, enabling them to use that
information to their advantage. I for one don't want to encourage players
to try to flash cards from their hand to try to spark a reaction from the
opponent.

I generally err on the side of “if the opponent had a chance to react to
what you're doing, I'm going to hold you to it.” Now, yes, the CR do
provide an avenue for a backup if costs aren't paid…but then you're down
the path of deliberately breaking a game rule in order to gain an
advantage. The conversations that happen down that path are often
unpleasant.

Oct. 31, 2014 05:15:35 AM

Edward Bell
Judge (Uncertified)

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

You're allowed to show your opponent cards in your hand are you not?

3.12 Hidden Information
Hidden information refers to the faces of cards and other objects at which the rules of the game and format do not allow you to look.
Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them, but are not required to inform opponents who are accidentally revealing hidden information.

Thus I can show my opponent cards in my hand to see their reaction.

Oct. 31, 2014 05:28:28 AM

Emilien Wild
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (International Judge Program))

BeNeLux

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

There is no “chess rule” in Magic. We do not care about the physical actions, but the potential for abuse. You may be sloppy (Magic is a difficult game played by imperfect people), but being sloppy should not give you a strategical advantage (this is still a skills based tournament). Please do not base your rulings on whenever the player stopped touching his or her cards.

As for showing cards from your hand to your opponent, yes, this is legal. However good luck convincing me you had a good reason to use that rule and were not purposely misrepresenting casting a spell in order to fish a reaction from your opponent and get access to private information. That's not a path a clever player should take if he wants to remain enrolled in an event.

Oct. 31, 2014 11:09:46 AM

Matt Sauers
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Great Lakes

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

To quote Toby: we don't play prison Magic.

I encourage players to use their words. Then nobody gets confused where they are. I even say “Untap, upkeep, draw” every turn just to watch my opponent's face to see if they want to do stuff. Speak first, indicate intent, then move.

Many folks don't do this, so they run into problems with a disconnect on where each person's mental boundary is.

Nov. 1, 2014 02:23:32 PM

Cydney Oliver
Judge (Uncertified)

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Stubborn Denial vs halfway cast spell

Thank you all.

This has come up several times at my LSG recently and it's helped me educate players about placing spells on the stack correctly to avoid snap decisions like this.