In Alex's pre-combat main phase, Alex controls a Polukranos and 5 untapped forests and is at 3 life. Neil controls a tapped monstrous Fleecemane Lion and a tapped Sedge Scorpion and is at 7 life. Alex activates Polukranos for X=2, puts 2 counters on Polukranos. Alex attacks with Polukranos and tells Neil he is dead on board because Polukranos is now a 7/7. Neil has acknowledged all of Alex's actions and agrees with his assessment and verbally concedes. Let's assume Alex is not cheating and truly missed his Polukranos' triggered ability. What do you do?


Additional optional scenarios (consider any possible infraction for these answers): What do you if Alex tells you any of the following? A: I didn't think I had to choose a target for the triggered ability. B: I thought the triggered ability was optional. C: I didn't know that was a triggered ability.

If the mistake isn't noticed until after the game, there's no fix, and the result stands.

Originally posted by Jeremy Fain:

If the mistake isn't noticed until after the game, there's no fix, and the result stands.

In this situation you are watching the game from right next to the table and the game state is still intact and you have a chance to do something before the cards are removed from the table.

Originally posted by Kainoa Pestana:

assume Alex is not cheating

aw, man, you're taking all the “fun” out of it! :D

Seriously - Alex can say “you're dead on the board, cuz Polukranos is now 7/7”, even knowing that the only legal target for the trigger is the Scorpion - he hasn't made an incorrect statement, but has *predicted* a future game state that can't actually happen. It's up to Neil to realize that Polukranos is about to die. If I'm Neil, I just say “sure … what are you targeting?” :)

Another wording that could be OK: “hey, it's a 7/7 now, you've got no blockers - you're at 7, right?”

If Alex went so far as to say “I attack for 7” and turn Polukranos sideways, we've got a GRV (because of that assumption you mentioned), and possibly FtMGS for Neil, if he doesn't notice right away.

For those about to rock … err, protest … look at this slight variation: Alex activates the Monstrous ability, and says “it's 7/7 now, uhhh… ” (thinking about targets), and Neil just shrugs and says “yep, you got this one” and scoops - that's clearly Neil's mistake, not realizing the Scorpion will kill Polukranos before it can attack, and he's conceded based on his own mistaken conclusions.

If Alex doesn't violate the Communication Policy while encouraging Neil's poor conclusions, it's a legal Jedi mind trick. It's also very dangerous territory, because Alex could easily misrepresent something and cross that line.

d:^D

Scott,

What is the GRV for? The creature is a 7/7 and if he goes to attack, then
he's missed the trigger. I'm missing where we have a GRV.

In this situation you are watching the game from right next to the table and the game state is still intact and you have a chance to do something before the cards are removed from the table.

Polukranos's trigger is not considered detrimental. If there's a plausible case that Alex forgot his trigger, I would say nothing - the opponent could also have caught it and requested it to go on the stack per Missed Trigger policy.

It's suspicious, so I'd need Alex to convince me he honestly didn't remember the trigger.

A/B/C are all answers that indicate that he didn't know it was wrong or that he was intentionally breaking a rule, so he can't be DQ'd for cheating. How much I believe him depends on his words, body language, experience, reputation, etc.

tl;dr I don't believe you step in to stop this game from ending. I would step in after they agree the game is over and investigate with Alex.

Originally posted by Shawn Doherty:

What is the GRV for? The creature is a 7/7 and if he goes to attack, thenhe's missed the trigger. I'm missing where we have a GRV.

OK, I'm thinking of not having Polukranos die, but you - and Evan - are right, the Missed Trigger means no GRV there.

d:^D

I'm glad I read Scott's comments on Jedi mind tricks and Evan's comment on letting them finish and then investigating…I can totally see myself intervening as Alex moves to attack, or even as he says something like “you're dead on board, right?” because this missed trigger seems really shady to me and I'm suspecting an intentional violation. Waiting just a few more seconds gives Neil his opportunity to catch it (he has a full turn, by the books, to catch this even though the game isn't likely to last that long) and stepping in sooner doesn't really change the final outcome, except by giving Neil the chance to win this as he should; Neil will lose if it was unintentional, win if his opponent was cheating, or, if I just hold off a few seconds, win if he catches it in time to put the trigger on the stack before he dies. Waiting just a few seconds also gives Alex the chance, as they scoop up, to say something like “man, I thought you had that…I was holding my breath hoping you'd miss that trigger.” A surprising number of players have caught on to the idea that they don't have to remind their opponents of their own triggers while not being aware that they can't intentionally skip their own. That would sure make my investigation easier!

Originally posted by Evan Cherry:

It's suspicious, so I'd need Alex to convince me he honestly didn't remember the trigger.

There's also a rules literacy question here. It's pretty likely that Alex doesn't understand that ‘Any number of targets’ for Polukranos actually demands a positive, nonzero number of targets.

Originally posted by Markus Leben:

There's also a rules literacy question here. It's pretty likely that Alex doesn't understand that ‘Any number of targets’ for Polukranos actually demands a positive, nonzero number of targets.

You're right. An honest “I thought 0 was an ok number” is a get-out-of-DQ-free card. It is, however, a GRV if they “resolve” the trigger that way. There you go Scott!

So if you don't step in before they scoop up their cards, and when you investigate Alex for cheating he tells you “I thought the triggered ability could have 0 targets, so I didn't say anything”, would you just give Alex a Warning for GRV?

Originally posted by Kainoa Pestana:

when you investigate Alex for cheating he tells you “I thought the triggered ability could have 0 targets, so I didn't say anything”, would you just give Alex a Warning for GRV?

Good question, and I expect there will be some disagreement in the answer. I fall under the “issue the GRV, there's NO WAY we can back this up.” I imagine some will state that because the game is over, we wouldn't issue a penalty.

Originally posted by Evan Cherry:

Kainoa Pestana
when you investigate Alex for cheating he tells you “I thought the triggered ability could have 0 targets, so I didn't say anything”, would you just give Alex a Warning for GRV?

Good question, and I expect there will be some disagreement in the answer. I fall under the “issue the GRV, there's NO WAY we can back this up.” I imagine some will state that because the game is over, we wouldn't issue a penalty.

But the first time you could have been aware of the GRV occurring was after the game/as the game was finishing up., similar to the time frame when you first learn about someone failing to reveal a morph.