Hello Judges and welcome back to the Knowledge Pool. This week we will talk about standard tournaments (although equally possible in limited) with a Silver scenario. As normal with Silver scenarios level 2 and higher judges please wait until Friday to comment so our level 1s can begin the discussion.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2014/12/10/like-a-phoenix-from-the-ashcloudes/

You are the Head and only judge of a Standard Grand Prix Trial. You are called to a table where the players are finishing Game 3. Nathan tells you that Ashley just won the game by attacking for lethal and didn't reveal her morphed Ashcloud Phoenix after the game ended. Both players agree that the Ashcloud Phoenix was killed two turns earlier by Nathan's Lightning Strike while it was face up and returned face down by its own triggered ability. It has remained face down since then. What do you do?

Edited Josh Stansfield (Dec. 10, 2014 08:47:45 PM)

IPG 707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.

I would issue a GPE-GRV warning to Ashley. The match result would stand. The question here is: “Why would this not be a GL?” It's only because this upgrade to a game lost only occurs if the opponent can't verify the mistake. In this case the opponent knew that this was a Ashcloud Phoenix because it was previously face-up.

I would double check with both players that the identity of the Ash-Cloud phoenix was tracked during the two turns it was face down. That is to say that was never bounced to hand or otherwise moved to a hidden zone. This will likely be the case, as Nathan has already indicated he knew what the card was. If both players agree on that, I would issue Ashley a GPE - GRV warning without upgrading, and remind her to always reveal morph cards when they go to a hidden zone, or the game is over.

Edited Rob Blanckaert (Dec. 10, 2014 09:16:47 PM)

Without looking at other posts:

This is GPE-GRV for failing to reveal the morph. However, unlike most morph-errors, this one does not get upgraded. The IPG specifies that the upgrade applies only when “An error that an opponent can’t verify the legality of” occurs. Since Everyone knew the Ashcloud Pheonix was an Ashcloud Pheonix, the upgrade path doesn't apply.

We have a GPE-GRV and a Warning for Ashley. The fact that Nathan is the one telling us that the face-down card was Ashcloud Phoenix means he absolutely could (and, in fact, did) verify the legality of that card on the battlefield as a morph. Ask Ashley if she has had any other Warnings for Game Rule Violations today, and if not carry on.

Before reading other responses:

Ashley has broken a game rule. At the end of the game, all face-down cards must be revealed. Unlike most instances of breaking this rule, however, we won't upgrade here - Nathan had an opportunity to verify that the face-down card was in fact a Morph card, and that the line of play is legal.

GPE - GRV with a Warning for Ashley, no infraction for Nathan, no fix necessary.

After reading other responses:

everyone seems to agree here. :)

On 11/12/2014 04:20, Eli Meyer wrote:
>
> Without looking at other posts:
>
> This is GPE-GRV for failing to reveal the morph. However, unlike most
> morph-errors, this one does not get upgraded. The IPG specifies that
> the upgrade applies only when “An error that an opponent can’t verify
> the legality of” occurs. Since Everyone knew the Ashcloud Pheonix was
> an Ashcloud Pheonix, the upgrade path doesn't apply.
>
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I agree with this answer both players know the card was a phoenix so no
upgrade.

Graham

Ashley clearly gets a GPE-GRV for not showing the morph. The question is the penalty. The clause requiring upgrade to game loss states that it should be upgraded if “the opponent could not verify the legality.” I think I this case, it is arguable either way. Nathan never had the opprotunity during the course of play to look freely at the face-down creature, but he did have the ability to derive the legality of the Phoenix being returned face-down. I think the spirit of the upgrade guides us towards non-upgrade, but I am interested to hear the consensus.

Tl:dr GPE-GRV warning no upgrade.

The morph creature is known, but following the rules, morphed Ashcloud Phoenix should still be revealed when ending the game.

GPE - GRV no game loss.

The important point is that the opponent has the ability to know that the morph is legal. Since both players know exactly the card that is face down, there is no upgrade to the GRV.

Skipping all previous answers I'd say this is a GPE-GRV on Ashley's part for failing to reveal the morph. The penalty for that is a Warning. In this particular situation we do not upgrade the penalty to a Game Loss since, the upgrade is applied only when the opponent is not able to verify the hidden information. In this case Nathan is able to verify because he has already seen the phoenix die on the battlefield and come back.

Now let's go back and read…

The rules say GPE - GRV - Warning to Ashley, both players can verify that the card was Ashcould Phoenix, no GL.



Now some philosophy:

I do not feel too happy about that way to handle this situation.
I believe that in 99 out of 100 games there won´t be a call, because both players agree that the card is “still revealed” or do not care at all, because it is clear what card it is.

Two turns ago the card was revealed, both players know exactly what card it is.

I feel like the call is surplus. A warning feels very hard here, considering it is on the same level as unpleasant behaviour like Slow Play and here we got nothing mentionable…

I do not feel like handing out a warning here helps our community in any way. Ashley will understand but not like it. There is a good chance Nathan is a bad loser and wants to use the opportunity to retaliate for the match loss.

While I believe people should call for a judge as often as they like when unsure, I also believe that we need to be able to deviate more when we are facing problems that actually do not benefit the player responsible for them.

I wouldn't put a Warning for GRV on the same level as Slow Play. Most importantly, Slow Play is a tournament Error and therefore its upgrade path is shorter. Hence it' a bit more severe.

However Warning is not the end of the world. A player did something against the rules (and not revealing Morph is a violation of CR, regardless of player's knowledge of its identity), gets warned and hopefully has just learned something new. That's what Warnings are for. The best impact on the community I can think of is that someone hears about it and thinks “ok, so I also should be more careful and play by the rules”. :)

GRV-GPE- warning, no upgrade.

Issue a warning to Ashley, GPE- GRV

The Ashcloud Phoenix is known information and the legality of the attack can be verified (both players agree it was turned over), so there is no need to upgrade the penalty.