I'm seeing 2 Game Play Errors - Game Rule Violation for both players.

Once on the Path to Exile and a second where the player (seemingly) forgot to draw from the Vendilion Clique.

Since one player controls the ability, but the other is supposed to take the action, we have GPE-GRV for both players in both cases.

As for the fix, we've got 2 issues. The first pair of GRVs was the path, and since the path error we've had 2 draws from divination, 1 draw for another player, a combat step, and we're into the next turn. This is way too far for me to be comfortable rewinding to this particular GRV.

As for the second pair of GRVs, the failure to draw a card from the Vendilion clique, this becomes more debatable. Here, we have a random card from N's hand would need to be returned, the snapcaster would need to be put back into his graveyard, we'd put a random card from his hand back on top of his library, then let him draw that card (seems like busywork, but if he's got a miracle it could matter).

I'm not comfortable with that either. I feel that choosing to back up the one GRV but not the other is going to lead to accusations of unfairness, which is something I'd like to avoid. My ruling would be to not backup to that point either.

So right after Scott tells us not to get hung up on slightly bad wording,
we're going to troll him hard and find an even more technical point, yes?

Firstly, “you decide that *****TTTTTHHHHHIIIIISSSSS***** was an honest
mistake. What is/are the infraction(s), penaltie(s) and fix(es)?” (Emphasis
mine)
“This” is clearly referring to the mentioned-just-before forgetting to
exile Snapcaster.

1.5-ly, because it is so clear that that is the focus of the question, even
if the card had actually not been drawn, it's irrelevant to the question.

I really wish so many threads did not get sidetracked this way.


2012/11/28 Michael White <forum-2018@apps.magicjudges.org>

Wow, we really skipped a few details on this one. Yes, the card was drawn for V-Clique, and we just completely glossed over that fact while constructing this scenario.

Mental note to our KP-selves: less is more. :)

So, now: carry on…

In that case then, this is a much simpler issue.

GPE-GRV for both players, one controlled the ability, the other was supposed to take the action. We're only allowed a partial fix under certain situations, and this isn't one of them (at the point we're called, the snapcaster is no longer in the wrong zone).

I think we've passed way too many decision points to back up to where the Path should have exiled the Snapcaster. Issue the penalties, tell the players to play on.

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Matt Braddock
Robert and Joep touch on something I overlooked to begin with, that being the fact that the graveyard is empty. This could cause the ruling to be different

I apologize for the confusion caused by that wording; as it happens, “otherwise empty” is an unnecessary bit of detail.

Suffice it to say that Numerian put the Snapcaster into his Graveyard. Please don't get lost in “is it his GY or the Exile zone?!?” - that's not a part of this scenario. (Good catch, though!)

Now, carry on…

Ah ok. With that clarification in hand I fall back to my original answer: Andre and Matt are correct. GPE-GRV and warnings for both of them (A controlled the Path and N illegally put the Snapcaster into his graveyard). Too many decision points have passed to allow a safe rewind. Remind players to play more carefully and move on.

Up until the point where the Moorland Haunt is activated, the fix we would be making is defined in GPE - GRV's “Additional Remedy” section; “If an object is in the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.”

We were definitely still within a turn of the error, given the Snapcaster was put in the wrong zone during the previous turn's first precombat main phase.

As the Head Judge for the event, I would rewind to the point immediately prior to Moorland Haunt being activated (i.e. in Numerian's Draw Step), involving untapping the mana from Umezawa's Jitte and returning it to Numerian's hand; followed by untapping the Moorland Haunt and the mana spent on it and removing the Spirit from the board.

Then, I would place the Snapcaster Mage in the correct zone (Exile). The infraction is GPE - GRV for both players, and both receive a Warning.

(Whilst I don't think it's 100% technically correct, I felt we weren't doing much with the fact we're Head Judge (having not even mentioned it), and in this circumstance deviation results in a much clearer and accurate outcome than following the official guidelines. All that aside, more than willing to be called out as completely wrong here! :D )

Edited Josh Andrews (Nov. 28, 2012 08:34:54 PM)

Yup! Thanks for the clarification Scott, although the additional scenario created by the ambiguity is certainly an interesting situation to consider!

(In this case, my initial post is the fix I would present.)

If we were to backup to the point of error, would N then be allowed to search his library for the land that PtE offers which was missed previously…hmm…
(Edit: Not sure if this sentence would be taken the wrong way, but it's just a light joke poking at what's happened in this thread)

My take:
Going by the IPG, as many have quoted, IPG 2.5, to issue a GPE-GRV to both players. Also to note is N forgetting to draw a card from Vendilion Clique's ability, as a card has been chosen and put at the bottom of the library.
Now comes the point of decision, to back or not to back, that is the question.
I'd have to say that too many points have passed that make backing up too uncomfortable for me - from the casting of Vendilion Clique to Divination. Only a partial fix of moving the object to its correct zone can be carried out, and since it's now exiled, it's in the correct zone, so no fix there neither.

Edited Andrew Teo (Nov. 29, 2012 02:05:45 AM)

No one said the land was missed. There has been a great deal of adding some details to the question that are not there. This question was already long enough without us adding small details such as that (which are not relevant to the question). It is fairly safe to assume that if we do not mention it as being a problem, then the spell/ability/attack/whatever else has resolved correctly and without issue.
-Ben

I'm pretty sure we issue a Game Loss to Numerian here for Deck Problem. Umezawa's Jitte is banned in Modern.

{DLS MOD} I have edited the OP in order to include the updates to the scenario

Edited David Lyford-Tilley (Nov. 29, 2012 08:27:13 AM)

I see a GPE - GRV for the player with the Moorland Haunt. EDIT: And yes, a GPE - GRV for the player who originally cast the Path to Exile. Was too focused on the interesting bit and forgot about this one.

There's no way I'm backing up to the point where the Snapcaster should have been exiled (when Path to Exile resolves). Too much has happened. So my first gut instinct is to leave things as is.

However, I am left feeling rather bad at how that would turn out. If we had not been called to the table, the players would've probably corrected the error by leaving the Snapcaster in exile and getting rid of the token; maybe even bouncing the Jitte. The IPG does allow us to move an object to the correct zone if it has been placed in an incorrect zone and we catch it within a turn. So that's what I'd do. Back-up the game to before the Moorland Haunt Activation (just rewinding past the casting and equipping of Jitte as decision points), and then placing the Snapcaster in exile. It seems clean, and is (in my eyes) backed-up by the IPG in section 2.5:

Additional Remedy
If not caught within a reasonable time frame, or backing up is impossible or sufficiently complex that it could affect the course of the game, the judge should leave the game state as it is after applying state-based actions and not attempt any form of partial ‘fix’ – either reverse all actions or none, with the following exceptions:
(…)
• If an object is in the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.

The only thing that makes me doubt this line of thought is that the IPG asks if an object *ïs* in the wrong zone. At this point in time, the Snapcaster isn't in the wrong zone anymore. However, I don't think we should take the IPG to the letter of the law in this case; it feels like the that remedy was conceived to prevent this kind of situation from happening (a player doing something with an object he shouldn't be able to because it's in the wrong place), so I'd go for that.

Edited Yukio Victoria (Nov. 30, 2012 01:33:37 PM)

The issue with that Jorge is that you are backing up halfway to the error. The way I understand the IPG is that is exactly what we are trying to avoid. The GPE-GRV was not activating the Moorland Haunt, the GPE-GRV was misresolving Path to Exile, thus backing up to the Moorland Haunt activation is a partial backup, which we are not allowed to attempt.

Wow - you really are an observant bunch! You found all sorts of things that we missed in final editing this scenario. So along the way, we also learned some unintended stuff.

Now for the scenario as it was actually intended to be: It is simpler than it might seem. There is only 1 Game Rule Violation, and that is putting the Snapcaster into the graveyard instead of into exile. Since this is an effect controlled by Anthemius but executed by Numerian, they both receive a Warning for GRV. If you're not sure about a detail like ”is this his graveyard or his exile zone“, just ask the players (we're kind of surprised no one mentioned that approach).

The situation is way too complicated to back up, so we leave everything as it is. Yes, that includes the Spirit token: Exiling a card from his graveyard and paying the manacost for the activation of Moorland Haunt was perfectly legal and not something we should try to fix. If you were called before the activation, or maybe even during the activation but before resolution, you could have applied a partial fix by putting the Snapcaster into the correct zone; i.e. from the graveyard into exile. Since the ability already has completely resolved, we are too late for doing that, so we either rewind everything or rewind nothing at all.

Thanks for all the responses, and kudos to everyone who contributed to this discussion!