Hi everyone :D

I'd like to report you this particular situation:

In a Modern pPTQ, Alex is in his pre-combat main phase. He tells Nick: “I wish to enter in my ‘Beginning of Combat Step’”. Nick responds casting a Cryptic Command, tapping all Alex's creatures and drawing a card. After Command has resolved, Alex casts a Goblin Guide, declaring that he wants to attack with it. Nick stops him, saying “You can't cast that spell , you are already in Combat Phase! JUUUDGE!”

How do you handle this? :D

Thanks for your help ^__^

P.S.: Happy new year to everyone!!! :D

First, I will note that I advise my players that if they actually care
about being in the Beginning of Combat Step (as opposed to the Declare
Attackers Step), they should involve a judge for clarity. To be honest, the
number of times that this is strategically important are pretty small. I've
seen it happen… once, I think. :)

Moving on to the core of the question, MTR 4.2 spells out a number of
tournament shortcuts. One of these is as follows:

“A statement such as ”I'm ready for combat“ or ”Declare attackers?“ offers
to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of
combat step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify
otherwise. ”

Which means that Nick cast Cryptic Command in the beginning of combat step.
As such, casting the Goblin Guide here is not legal. Most likely, Alex
thought he had a loophole that would allow him to be in his main phase
(pushed back in time), but that is just not the case. This is not the way
to play around Cryptic Command. :)

–David Hibbs
L3, Austin Texas



On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Jacopo Strati <
forum-15122-0d0e@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone :D
>
> I'd like to report you this particular situation:
>
> In a Modern pPTQ, Alex is in his pre-combat main phase. He tells Nick: “I
> wish to enter in my ‘Beginning of Combat Step’”. Nick responds casting a Cryptic
> Command <http://apps.magicjudges.org/api/autocard/?card=Cryptic+Command>,
> tapping all Alex's creatures and drawing a card. After Command has
> resolved, Alex casts a Goblin Guide
> <http://apps.magicjudges.org/api/autocard/?card=Goblin+Guide>, declaring
> that he wants to attack with it. Nick stops him, saying “You can't cast
> that spell , you are already in Combat Phase! JUUUDGE!”
>
> How do you handle this? :D
>
> Thanks for your help ^__^
>
> P.S.: Happy new year to everyone!!! :D
>
>
>
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–
Ab ovo usque ad mala. – Horace

I'd probably ask how he has done combat before, specifically whether he has said this phrase before. I'd need to understand why he is being so formal. What I am especially looking for is if in the past he has used this, and then PASSED again in the beginning of combat (correct formality), or whether he has used this before and used it as a shortcut to declare attackers.

If he has been formal before and passed again in BOC to get to attackers, then I'd certainly say he is still in his main phase. His formality is correct and consistent. If he has been formal before and shortcutted directly to attackers, I'd rule he's in BOC - and I would consider to look for Cheating, because he almost certainly knows that he is screwing around and that he is in BOC (therefore he is misrepresenting that he is in Main).

If this is the FIRST time he has attacked, then you have a problem. While he is permitted to be completely formal, he was expressing a desire to achieve a future game state, and so he is attempting a shortcut. He might instead have said, “I pass in my main phase”, which is the non-shortcut way of achieving the BOC step. I probably would ask him why he phrased it similarly to the shortcut default rather than saying “I pass in main phase”. I've seen people use this formality all the time, though it is rare. I'd need to understand better what he was doing and why.

But this only matters if this is the FIRST time he has entered combat, probably in the entire event. If he had ever entered combat before this (and I'm betting that he did), then see the 1st 2 paragraphs. Even if this is Round 2, I can go back to R1 opponent and ask him if he recalls this guy being formal in combat. If he WAS formal, I'm fairly confident the previous opponent would tell me that, because the formality is unusual.

So, this could range anywhere from ruling in his favor, to ruling in the opponent's favor, to ruling in the opponent's favor and DQing the guy for intentionally misrepresenting the phase he is in. Depends on the other answers I get.

Need a LOT more information here, time to investigate for it :):)

Eric S.
—– Original Message —–
From: Jacopo Strati
To: eshukan@verizon.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 10:20 AM
Subject: Legal Combat Trick…? (Competitive REL)


Hi everyone :D

I'd like to report you this particular situation:

In a Modern pPTQ, Alex is in his pre-combat main phase. He tells Nick: “I wish to enter in my ‘Beginning of Combat Step’”. Nick responds casting a Cryptic Command, tapping all Alex's creatures and drawing a card. After Command has resolved, Alex casts a Goblin Guide, declaring that he wants to attack with it. Nick stops him, saying “You can't cast that spell , you are already in Combat Phase! JUUUDGE!”

How do you handle this? :D

Thanks for your help ^__^

P.S.: Happy new year to everyone!!! :D

I think it would depend a little on exactly what “response” entailed.

“Still in main phase, I'll cast cryptic…” Sure, they're in main phase still. (And I doubt that would ever happen) It would require something very clear for me to believe that Alex really thought Nick wanted to immediately “cast Cryptic” instead of “accept the shortcut of moving into Beginning of Combat when Nick has priority, cast Cryptic”, and that Nick really meant that.

Otherwise, I think they're in Beginning of Combat. While it's not the exact phrasing of the shortcut in the MTR, and while he is using the technically correct term to get what he wants, he's still preying on lack of clarity in a step transition where players are generally not 100% crisp. Whether they're a rules shark or a new player who thinks they found a trick, it's not going to work out well for them I think.

Just ask Nick “when were you responding?” Since he told Alex “you can't…” and called for the Judge, it's clear he thinks they're already in Alex' Beginning of Combat step.

That means that Alex is trying to create confusion about where they are in the game.

Originally posted by MTR 4.2:

A player is not allowed to use a previously undeclared tournament shortcut, or to modify an in-use tournament shortcut without announcing the modification, in order to create ambiguity in the game.

No infraction, just explain that's not how this works.

Alex' creatures are tapped, and he has priority in his Beginning of Combat step; he could animate a Mutavault or similar at this time, but most likely he's just going to have a “no attack” Combat Phase.

d:^D

Originally posted by Chris Nowak:

I think it would depend a little on exactly what “response” entailed.

Not sure that it really matters what Nick meant by, “response,” if even he said that at some point. The fact remains that Nick took an action after the proposed shortcut and section 4.2 on shortcuts is pretty clear on where the game state should be at that point. This is more a matter of how Alex has been playing and what his intentions are with his statement. Scott's question for Nick is very on point as that clears up any doubts about where Nick is thinking the game state is. However even without asking Nick directly we already have a pretty good indicator that Nick thinks the game state is beyond Alex's main phase (he called a judge). Simply posing the question removes all possibility of doubt from anyone's mind, so again our focus goes back to Alex and what he is trying to accomplish with his statement.

Scott Marshall
That means that Alex is trying to create confusion about where they are in the game.

If Alex is intentionally doing this then we enter into the place where Eric has said he would DQ Alex. I feel that a little more digging might be appropriate as per Eric's post. Otherwise, I would agree no infraction has occurred and we clear up any misunderstandings.

Edited Nicola DiPasquale (Dec. 31, 2014 11:25:25 AM)

They're in Beginning of Combat.
The shortcut rule is worded to disallow exactly these kinds of tricks. It is a bit awkward that what he says is technically correct so that doesn't leave him with an easy way to actually go to the Beginning of Combat step without saying what he's going to do there, but as said this is almost never relevant so it doesn't really matter in practice.

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Just ask Nick “when were you responding?” Since he told Alex “you can't…” and called for the Judge, it's clear he thinks they're already in Alex' Beginning of Combat step.

That means that Alex is trying to create confusion about where they are in the game.

MTR 4.2
A player is not allowed to use a previously undeclared tournament shortcut, or to modify an in-use tournament shortcut without announcing the modification, in order to create ambiguity in the game.

No infraction, just explain that's not how this works.

Alex' creatures are tapped, and he has priority in his Beginning of Combat step; he could animate a Mutavault or similar at this time, but most likely he's just going to have a “no attack” Combat Phase.

d:^D

If this is the case, then what wording would you have to use in order to have Alex's intentions apply? The intention of “I would like to end my main phase and move to the beginning of combat”. Reading over the scenario what Alex said makes sense. He wants to enter beginning of combat, which means he's passing priority on his main phase.

I guess im just confused about how you would have to word it in order to do what Alex is suggesting.

If the active player wants to do something during their Beginning of Combat
step, all they have to do is say: “In the beginning of combat step, I do
<X>”. The active player can try to move to a point of the turn to do
something. If the NAP wants to do something prior to that point, the NAP
can interrupt that. There is no reason to say “I want to move from <point
a> to <point b>” except as a way to trick their opponent.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

Originally posted by Elliot Garner:

what wording would you have to use in order to have Alex's intentions apply?

Players don't usually just end a step or phase for the sake of ending it. They usually move the turn to a different step or phase because they want to perform a particular action in another step or phase. If Alex intends to end his main phase so he can cast something in the beginning of combat step, he'd say “In the beginning of combat step, I cast <whatever>.”

In the case at hand, Alex's intention is to trick Nick into misplaying his Cryptic Command, and there is no possible wording to achieve that.

Well, it is possible to imagine a corner case in which a player would want to end their first main phase without revealing what they want to do in the beginning of combat phase (most likely because their opponent has mana floating), but the onus is on them to be exceedingly precise. Even then, I think they should ask when their opponent wishes to act if they do.

Originally posted by Carsten Haese:

Players don't usually just end a step or phase for the sake of ending it. They usually move the turn to a different step or phase because they want to perform a particular action in another step or phase.

One thing I want to mention is that I do this kind of thing a lot, specifically in declare blockers. Let's say I'm attacking with a 4/4 and my opponent blocks with a 3/3 or something. It's clear they have a trick and I have one as well, so I'm quite specific with my wording: “I pass priority.” Then, when they do their stuff, I can respond.

There's a definite difference in the situations, though. When you're
dealing with a combat trick, there is (as of M10) only one step in which
you can play your combat trick after you know how blocks are being assigned
and still have the trick matter, The thing with Beginning of Combat is
that there are two possible steps that things could be played in (Main
Phase and Beginning of Combat) and the active player is trying to finagle
which one they are in for maximum advantage.

That said, I like Eric's approach to the situation. If the AP has been
regularly using “Go to Beginning of Combat” as a shortcut for immediately
attacking, then we certainly can't let him do something different now just
because it suits him. If, however, he's been saying something like “Go to
attacks” or “Go to Declare Attackers” and in this case says “Go to
Beginning of Combat,” I'm not sure it's appropriate to punish him for
knowing the correct terminology to get the result he wants. If he has
specifically chosen to use a different phrase than the previously
established shortcut and he's very clearly stating what he would like to do
(which seems clear to me in this case), then I'm inclined to let him have
it. It's worth keeping in mind that the NAP can also clarify when he wants
to cast his Cryptic Command just as easily and has chosen to be ambiguous
in this case. If upon investigation it is clear that the AP has made the
effort to be clear and the NAP has not, why are we opting not to reward
clarity? Possibly the NAP does not know when he should be casting his
Cryptic Command, but does that not fall under the superior rules knowledge
clause?

It's worth noting that the shortcuts section of the MTR state that “a player may not request priority and then do nothing with it.” AP needs to have a specific action he wants to take in order to request priority at the beginning of combat. I'd ask him (away from the table) what he was planning to do at the beginning of combat. If he wants to cast a card like Cauldron Dance then it is clear he is intending to stop at this point for a reason. If his only intent is Jedi Mind Tricks then I'd inform him he can't request priority without taking an action and we are clearly in beginning of combat.