This situation occurred at the PTQ I head judged yesterday, and I'd like to obtain some thoughts on how other judges would rule (I don't believe I was 100% correct, but my solution felt right in my gut, and the players were happy). I will not post my actions for a few days as to not influence your thoughts.

A attacks with three creatures, and N chooses not to block since it is not a lethal attack. A puts N down to 1 life, while N puts themselves down to 3 life. Both players begin to compare notes, and they find that A missed a fetch land activation by N, and N missed the life loss from a Siege Rhino trigger. Both of these life changes occurred more than a turn ago. If N's life total was accurate, then they would currently be at zero life. N states that if they had known the attack was for lethal, then they would have blocked a creature.

How do you resolve this situation?

As a note, players were not announcing life totals regularly (which is obviously how we reached this point).

First let's decide infractions. At least Player A gets a GRV for failing to instruct his opponent to lose 3 life (this assumes that he remembered the trigger for himself). The other will get a FTMG for failing to notice the opp's error.

There is no CPV, because CPV stems ONLY from violations of MTR 4.1 (as stated in the IPG 3.7 for CPV), and neither player misrepresented anything (failing to notice a life total discrepancy is not defined as a CPV). Player N did in fact lose life to his own fetch and so does not get a GRV for that.

Therefore, only a GRV for Player A remains. But the GRV is too old to back up completely, so we look to partial fixes as specified in the Additional Remedy for GRV, but there is no partial fix for life totals.

Therefore we remain where we are and we must rule in terms of (3 life) or (1 life). But Player A had an obligation to tell Player N to lose life - as a direct instruction on his Rhino effect, and he apparently failed in that obligation. Therefore, I'd probably rule (3 life) here.

Note that backing up through combat, adjusting life totals, and then allowing N to block again is NOT supported by the IPG. There is no partial backup at Competitive.

(at Reg I might entertain such a partial backup)

The main issue is that “not noticing a life total discrepancy” is not defined as an infraction, either a GRV or CPV, therefore no backup should occur for “failing to notice a life total discrepancy”.

This scenario appears to be a scenario where if both players are screwing up, lots of decisions are made using wrong life totals. There's going to be some rough justice later when we fix it. Lesson to players: verify life totals!!

(3 life) is my choice.

-Eric S.

edit: replaced square brackets with parens (square brackets are reserved, and essentially hide what's inside them.

Edited Scott Marshall (Jan. 5, 2015 04:29:05 AM)

First let's decide infractions. At least Player A gets a GRV for failing to instruct his opponent to lose 3 life (this assumes that he remembered the trigger for himself). The other will get a FTMG for failing to notice the opp's error.
———

Actually, it occurs to me that Player N may get a GRV for the Rhino, too, instead of just a FTMG. He was instructed to lose 3 life and he didn't. That's an instruction for him, controlled by A, so GRV's for both.

-Eric

Sounds like a good bit of room for some investigation here. Hopefully it's just sloppy play, and no shenanigans happening (I'm curious about how the lifeloss from the Seige Rhino trigger was handled especially. I'm guessing it was said, but not acknowledged?).

But assuming the players are on the up and up, it doesn't look like anything was really missed in the MT or GRV sense, just the player's notes of their life totals are not correct. So we correct them, and instruct them to announce life total changes.

Unfortunately the players have been playing 2 different games of magic (both different from the “real” one) for some time now, so the question left is what to do about that.

As much as I'd like to rewind a little and let the combat happen again, I can't find policy justification for it (or clear reasoning why I would pick that point versus another). So I think I just have to console myself with consistency and lack of bias.

If it turns out that A didn't announce the life loss for the Rhino trigger, we've got a GRV here (and a FtMGS to go with it), but it's too far back to rewind from the sounds of it.

Either way, surprise win for A

Additional information, if it helps:

Player A recorded both the life gain and life loss from the Rhino trigger, while player N failed to record both the life gain and the life loss.

Eric, are we still assigning A a GRV since he properly recorded the life gain and loss? Are you adjusting N's life total to zero at the point of discovery?

Edited Matt Braddock (Jan. 4, 2015 08:28:53 PM)

Did player A say anything about the life loss when recording it, and just didn't confirm it with the opponent? Or did they just assume the opponent read the card?

Ah, sorry, I was under the assumption that Player A recorded his own life gain but not N's life loss. So, Player A recorded it correctly on his own score sheet, eh?

The problem is that he controls the effect and the efefct commands the opponent to do something. So, he still has an obligation to inform the opponent about the effect - which it seems that he did not do.

But now I suppose I'd need to ask a few questions about how he communicated the effect to his opponent - what did he say to the opponent at the time of the resolution. If he announced what happens, I may rule in his favor here, but if he says that he was silent and just assumed that the opponent knew what was going on, that's more difficult.

But yeah, if he had it written correctly on his own scoresheet, then it appears there is no GRV and that the life actually was lost.

Do both players have agreeing life totals for A?

Gareth - no. N did not record the Rhino trigger at all, so he had A at 3 less life.

Eric - From what I saw of N's play in the subsequent round, is that triggers were communicated (spoken aloud), but N was so focused on the game that he simply forgot to write them on the scorepad. I would have to check with the floor judge to see if A stated the Rhino trigger aloud, and it was just another case of N not recording the trigger on his life pad.

Update: I spoke to the floor judge from the event, and he is fairly certain that A recorded the Rhino trigger on his life pad, but was silent about the trigger.

Edited Matt Braddock (Jan. 4, 2015 09:38:22 PM)