Welcome back to The Knowledge Pool! This week's scenario is another one submitted through our public submission form, which can be found here. Thanks for this scenario go to the illustrious Toby Elliot. As with all Silver scenarios, L2+ judges should wait until Friday to respond.

The blog post for this scenario can be found here

Ajani controls a Satyr Rambler. He casts Dragon Mantle on it. Nala says it resolves. Ajani then casts Last Breath on Nala's Anvilwrought Raptor. After writing down and confirming the new life totals, Ajani says “oh yeah, I need to draw for Dragon Mantle,” and immediately picks up a card, putting it into his hand. Nala calls for a judge. What is the appropriate infraction, penalty, and fix?

At first glance, it looks like a missed trigger, and then GPE - DEC. However the rules around a missed trigger are that the trigger is not missed until the player does something that proves that it has been missed, and Ajani has not done so. Last Breath is an Instant, and can be cast while the Dragon Mantle draw trigger is on the stack.

From the IPG:

Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack.

And from the Annotated IPG:

When making this determination, a lot of benefit of the doubt is given to players — they usually have to go well out of their way to show that they’ve missed a trigger. For example, if a player casts a spell during upkeep, it is assumed that upkeep triggers are still on the stack, not missed.

I would ask the player what, if anything, they had said during this exchange, to see if there was anything that would indicate the trigger must have been missed.

Assuming things played out exactly as the scenario is written, no infraction, no penalty, and no fix.

If Nala questions this, I would explain as above, and that if they need to understand if a trigger has or has not been missed, they will need to ask, even if that risks reminding their opponent of a trigger they may have forgotten:

If an opponent requires information about the precise timing of a triggered ability or needs details about a game object that may be affected by a resolved triggered ability, that player may need to acknowledge that ability’s existence before its controller does.

Edited Sam McKoy (June 5, 2014 04:22:11 AM)

This is almost a missed trigger. However, since Last Breath is an instant, there is technically a legal sequence of events that allows this to happen. We all know that Ajani didn't actually intend to cast LB in response to the Mantle trigger, but I wouldn't want to make a big deal about it.

If Last Breath had been a sorcery, this would gave been a missed trigger instead of DEC. DEC doesn't apply because a GPE happened before the draw happened.

I would rule no infraction, but I would caution Ajani that (in general) he really, really shouldn't try to fix situations like this on his own, but always call a judge. Especially since it's so easy to stumble head-first into a GL for DEC even with the best of intentions.

no infraction, no penalty.

I'd investigate to see if any action occurred that would render Dragon Mantle missed. Additionally, I'd ask A what he meant by “Oh yeah, I need to draw for dragon mantle”.

I'd then most likely rule it no infraction, no penalty, and explain why it was the case.

Olivier, scenarios are supposed to include all the necessary actions of the players required to figure out how to answer the question.

So, assuming what happened was exactly what was listed (and nothing more), how would the meaning of “Oh yeah, I need to draw for Dragon Mantle” change things?

I would identify the card draw from Dragon Mantle as a triggered ability (the trigger condition is met by entering the battlefield and it contains “When”). Dragon Mantle does resolve because Nala says so, so the ability does trigger. The triggered ability does change the visible game state by letting Ajani draw a card, so he needs to show awareness (and draw a card) before he moves to the next phase or take a action that can only be done after the trigger resolves.

Ajani then cast Last Breath which is a Instant, so it is possible to cast it before the trigger resolves. Even if Ajani “forget” about the triggered abilty before he cast Last Breath, the moment to show awareness for the trigger didn't pass right now.

After the resolution of Last Breath he does show awareness and draws a card before he does any other action that can be done only after the trigger resolves. This is totally fine, so there is no infraction. It might be necessary to explain Nala why the trigger is not missed by explaining that this sort of trigger is considered to be missed if the player does not draw a card before, for example, casting a sorcery speed spell or moving into combat phase.

Before reading other responses:

This one's kind of interesting. I can see three ways one could look at it.
1) Ajani missed Dragon Mantle's trigger (which is a not generally detrimental trigger), and then drew a card when nothing instructed him too. GPE-DEC, with a game loss.
2) Ajani played a block of actions - Last Breathing an opponent's creature and resolving a trigger - in a technically incorrect order that still arrives at the same result. This would be Out of Order Sequencing, and I'd caution the players to play more carefully, and communicate.
3) Ajani cast Last Breath while the trigger was still on the stack, it resolved, and then the trigger resolved.

In order to not miss it, players need to demonstrate an awareness of a trigger at the first point it has a visible impact on the game state. In this case, that would be when the trigger resolves, and a card is drawn (or forgotten). Given that 3) is a legal sequence of events, and the only difference between them is what Ajani claims he was thinking along the way, I'm inclined to rule that Ajani cast Last Breath with the trigger still on the stack, and everything resolved legally. No penalty, educate the players to communicate clearly, and continue the game.


After reading other responses:

The IPG helpfully points out that casting an instant does not cause an unstated trigger to be forgotten, as it can still be cast with the trigger on the stack. The Annotated IPG confirms this line of reasoning.

Originally posted by Ernst Jan Plugge:

If Last Breath had been a sorcery, this would gave been a missed trigger instead of DEC. DEC doesn't apply because a GPE happened before the draw happened.

While it's not the scenario, I believe that if a Sorcery had been cast instead of an Instant, this would be Drawing Extra Cards, not a Missed Trigger. Since Dragon Mantle's trigger is not generally detrimental, we don't award a GRV-Missed Trigger when it's missed. The first actual GPE is when the card is drawn. For comparison, an opponent wouldn't get FtMGS for not pointing out a forgotten trigger - the first moment when a game is in a truly illegal state is when the card hits the hand.

Okay. I suck when it comes to the IPG, and I haven't read any answers yet. My initial thought he resolved the dragon mantle trigger. He missed it earlier. Sucks to be you, man. That's a game play error right there. I believe it's a game loss, but in the case that isn't, i would return the card back to his library and then shuffle it. I'm a L0, I pray mercy. Thanks for reading this.

I immediately went to GPV - DEC, but then I saw someone else mention that Last Breath is an instant. Since all the following plays could have been made with the Dragon Mantle trigger on the stack, there is no penalty, no rewind, game continues from this point.

If Last Breath had been a Sorcery (or Sorcery-speed effect), I would issue GPV - DEC (Game Loss), but since that isn't the scenario, I'll leave it at that.

Edited Lyle Waldman (June 6, 2014 06:23:13 AM)

Originally posted by Daniel Hoshino:

Okay. I suck when it comes to the IPG, and I haven't read any answers yet. My initial thought he resolved the dragon mantle trigger. He missed it earlier. Sucks to be you, man. That's a game play error right there. I believe it's a game loss, but in the case that isn't, i would return the card back to his library and then shuffle it. I'm a L0, I pray mercy. Thanks for reading this.

That's awesome that you're contributing even before getting certified! I wish I'd done the same when I was working on my L1.

Take a step back here - rather than focusing on the penalty for the player's action, what rule was he breaking? The Annotated IPG is a great help here - find the infraction first, and then let the IPG define the penalty. You've identified this as a Game Play Error - which one was it?

Originally posted by Talin Salway:

While it's not the scenario, I believe that if a Sorcery had been cast instead of an Instant, this would be Drawing Extra Cards, not a Missed Trigger. Since Dragon Mantle's trigger is not generally detrimental, we don't award a GRV-Missed Trigger when it's missed. The first actual GPE is when the card is drawn. For comparison, an opponent wouldn't get FtMGS for not pointing out a forgotten trigger - the first moment when a game is in a truly illegal state is when the card hits the hand.

Actually, if a beneficial trigger is missed it's still a GPE infraction. There's just no penalty for it.

Just to clarify something, because the language we use is important, even
when it's just among fellow judges: the IPG does not recognize such a thing
as a “beneficial” trigger. Triggers are either generally detrimental, or
they are not. This may seem like a minor point, but it's an important
distinction. We don't need to ask ourselves whether a trigger could
actually be “good” for a player; rather, we simply want to check whether it
is bad most of the time.

Yes, I meant ‘not generally considered detrimental’, I shouldn't have cut it short in that way.

Is this Comp. or Regular?