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Competitive REL » Post: Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

Sept. 29, 2014 06:56:04 AM

Yonatan Kamensky
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

There was an interesting scenario brought up in the Judge IRC today, and I feel it bears more discussion.

Arnold controls a Jeskai Ascendancy and casts a noncreature spell. He indicates the card, says “triggers,” and only resolves the second ability (draw a card, discard a card). On Nancy's turn, she declares attackers, at which point Arnold realizes that he never untapped his creatures.

What is the infraction, if any, and how do we fix it?

Sept. 29, 2014 07:17:13 AM

Julio Sosa
Judge (Level 3)

Hispanic America - South

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

They seem to be two set of different triggered abilities, which both
trigger when the card's controller casts a noncreature spell.
Arnold seems to have resolved the second one, but failed to acknowledge the
existence of the first trigger, since he did not untap his creatures.
Personally, I would rule it's a missed trigger.

Regarding the remedy, the IPG states that
“If the triggered ability creates an effect whose duration has already
expired or the ability was missed prior to the current phase in the
previous player's turn, instruct the players to continue playing.”

The duration of the effect has already expired (the “until end of turn”
part of giving +1/+1 to creatures), so there is nothing that can be done,
apart from asking the players to continue with the game
El sep 28, 2014 6:52 PM, “Yonatan Kamensky” <

Sept. 29, 2014 07:24:50 AM

Julio Sosa
Judge (Level 3)

Hispanic America - South

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

Oh, I forgot to justify why I consider it missed:

“• A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state
(including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The
controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what
the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as
casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase)
that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.
Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a
triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack.”

Although giving +1/+1 is invisible, untapping creatures IS a visible
change. Arnold failed to acknowledge that part, by not untapping or stating
which the action was (for example, saying “trigger, untap my creatures”.
El sep 28, 2014 7:13 PM, “Julio Sosa” <forum-12894-de3a@apps.magicjudges.org>
escribió:

Sept. 29, 2014 07:53:14 AM

Yonatan Kamensky
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

I very much agree, Julio. However, if we consider that Arnold's phrasing may have indicated awareness of two triggers, is it possible that there has been a GRV?

Sept. 29, 2014 07:56:20 AM

Alexis Hunt
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

I'm generally going to assume that unless the player explicitly mentions both triggers (or something like “two triggers”), they only communicated awareness of one. “Triggers” could be a verb, not an adjective.

(apply this reasoning to other languages as you see fit)

Sept. 29, 2014 08:07:50 AM

Shawn Doherty
Judge (Level 3)

USA - Northeast

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

Saying “trigger” does mean anything. You can say it and still miss the trigger. You can not say it and remember the trigger. It's all about resolving it correctly.

Sept. 29, 2014 08:09:33 AM

Alexis Hunt
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

That's not true. In most cases, by saying “trigger”, you acknowledge its existence, which is enough to make the infraction no longer a Missed Trigger. If the trigger is acknowledged but not resolved (say, because the opponent responds and the controller subsequently forgets), it's a GRV.

Sept. 30, 2014 12:44:26 AM

Matt Braddock
Judge (Level 2), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

I feel as if we're now down to parsing the language used in the IPG.

Originally posted by IPG:

Once any of the above obligations has been fulfilled, or the trigger has been otherwise acknowledged, further problems are treated as a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation.

So, in order for this to be a GRV, the trigger has to be acknowledged. But what does that exactly mean? This is what we get from the IPG:

Originally posted by IPG:

A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.

For the trigger to be missed (meaning “not acknowledged”), the player fails to show awareness of the trigger when it affect the game in a visible fashion.

For Jeskai's Ascendancy's second trigger, it affects the game state visibly when it resolves (untapping creatures). When we move pass the point of when the ability should have resolved and take another game action, the player has not demonstrated awareness, even if they said “trigger.”

From the language in the IPG, it seems as if acknowledging a trigger goes beyond simply stating “trigger,” and extends to demonstrating awareness at the proper time. Thus, you can say “trigger” and still miss it.

Sept. 30, 2014 12:51:24 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Jeskai Ascendancy and Missed Trigger(s)

This one hinges a lot on the investigation (i.e., “you had to be there”).

What did Arnold mean when he said “triggers”? Was he pointing out that there's multiple triggers? or, as Sean noted, was he using “triggers” as a verb?

Even if meant “this card triggers”, that doesn't rule out the possibility that he didn't miss either trigger, but forgot to untap (i.e., didn't resolve correctly/completely).

But, to really simplify this, I'd just say to Arnold “so, why did you forget that trigger?” and let him convince me he didn't.

d:^D