Originally posted by Chuck Pierce:
Thomas: I think another important point to make is that GRV is the catch-all last choice for a Game Play Error infraction. We only apply GRV if we don't have another category which fits better. In this case, the error is Nadia drawing a card when she wasn't allowed, so that's what we have and we don't keep looking for a GRV since we already have a category that fits.
Originally posted by Chuck Pierce:
Except that Arjun did not use OOS, he sequenced everything correctly. She cast Electrolyze passed priority, he passed priority back (Saying “sure, still done”), it resolved and dealt 1 damage to the Spirit, he put the Spirit into the graveyard. That is the correct order and not at all “Out of Order Sequencing” as he did exactly what the rules tell him to do. Then, after that, Nadia drew a card, thinking that she was continuing to resolve Electrolyze. Unfortunately for her, with the game state as it was, drawing a card was not a legal part of resolving Electrolyze, and so she has committed the error of drawing extra cards (just like if she had cast Ancestral Recall and drawn 4 cards instead of 3). The fact that she drew it after he put the Spirit in the Graveyard, because of her flawed understanding of the interaction, does not mean that Arjun did something wrong.
Originally posted by Chuck Pierce:
Edit: Also note that except for cases of cheating, player intent shouldn't be coloring our Game Play Error infractions. It doesn't matter that Nadia thought she was resolving Electrolyze correctly, what matters is that she did so incorrectly by drawing a card when she wasn't allowed.
Edited Thomas Ludwig (Oct. 6, 2014 05:32:25 PM)
Originally posted by Thomas Ludwig:
Your Version of the Story does not reflect what happened.
1.) Electrolyze started to resolve, it dealt 1 damage to Spirit and Arjun.
2.) Arjun placed Spirit into the graveyard while Nadia was still resolving Electrolyze
How can you say Nadia finished resolving Electrolyze when she says she did not, shouldn´t she know that better than you? Remember she is not lieing.
Originally posted by Thomas Ludwig:
When the Players don´t notice a GRV that does not mean it´s not there.
Gareth Pye
Thomas: How was it visible to Arjun that Nadia had commited the GRV the proceeded the illegal drawing of a card? I don't believe it was visible and thus there was no visible GRV before the DEC so we award the DEC infraction.
Edited Claudio Martín Nieva Scarpatti (Oct. 6, 2014 08:22:56 PM)
Originally posted by Thomas Ludwig:
Your Version of the Story does not reflect what happened.
1.) Electrolyze started to resolve, it dealt 1 damage to Spirit and Arjun.
2.) Arjun placed Spirit into the graveyard while Nadia was still resolving Electrolyze
How can you say Nadia finished resolving Electrolyze when she says she did not, shouldn´t she know that better than you? Remember she is not lieing. I can´t blame/punish a Player for something I know / believe he did not do.
Edited Chuck Pierce (Oct. 7, 2014 09:00:53 AM)
Edited Andre Tepedino (Oct. 7, 2014 11:30:07 AM)
Originally posted by Jacob Milicic:
Is this truly a GPE - DEC violation on the part of Nadia simply because the rule-changing continuous effect in question applied to the drawing of cards rather than any other game rule?
IPG 2.5
It handles violations of the Comprehensive Rules that are not covered by the other Game Play
Errors.
IPG 2.3
Though this error is easy to commit accidentally, the potential for it to be overlooked by opponents mandates a higher level of penalty.
Edited Chuck Pierce (Oct. 7, 2014 11:15:19 AM)
Originally posted by Chuck Pierce:
Yes, that's exactly why it's DEC instead of GRV. In the IPG, Game Rule Violation specifically says:IPG 2.5
It handles violations of the Comprehensive Rules that are not covered by the other Game Play
Errors.
In the case of drawing cards that aren't allowed by the rules, we have a Game Play Error Infraction that specifically covers the situation, so we apply the more specific infraction instead of the general catch-all GRV.
IPG 2.3
A player illegally puts one or more cards into his or her hand and, at the moment before he or she began the instruction or action that put a card into his or her hand, no other Game Rule Violation or Communication Policy Violation had been committed, and the error was not the result of resolving objects on the stack in an incorrect order.
IPG 2.3 Drawing Extra Cards, Philosophy
If the identity of the card was known to all players before being placed into the hand, or was placed into an empty hand, and the card can be returned to the correct zone with minimal disruption, do so and downgrade the penalty to a Warning.