Welcome, judges, to another week of the Knowledge Pool. This week we have a Silver scenario, which means L2+ judges should wait until after their local FNMs to comment.

Here are your blog link and scenario:

Anne and Ned are playing in a PPTQ. Anne controls a Soulfire Grand Master. During her end step, Ned targets it with Magma Spray. Anne activates the Grand Master's ability, then casts Swan Song targeting the Magma Spray, leaving her with only one remaining Island untapped. While she is pulling the bird token out of her deck box, she absentmindedly puts the Swan Song in her graveyard.

Ned then untaps, draws, and casts another copy of Magma Spray. Anne taps her Island and looks through her hand for the Swan Song. At this point she realizes she put it into the graveyard by mistake and calls for a judge.

What do you do?

I would give Anne a warning GPE-GRV and Ned a warning for GPE-FTMGS. Immediatly return Swan Song to Anne's hand.

Quoted from the IPG,
• If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

Anne receives a GPE-GRV for putting the swan song in the graveyard, and Ned receives a GPE-FtMGs for allowing it.

The Soulfire Grand Master creates a replacement effect the mandates Swan Song return to the hand rather then ever enter the graveyard, so this is where the first error occurred. To fix this I would enact an IPG supported partial fix, the Swan song was supposed to go from the stack to the hand however it went to the graveyard and since it's identity is known to all we can move it to the hand without issue.

Anne receives GPE-GRV for putting Swan Song in the wrong zone, and Ned receives a GPE-FtMGS for not noticing it. They both get a Warning.

However, I wouldn´t apply the partial fix, since an important game action has been taken based on a different (and erroneous) game state (casting a bolt, opposing counter in the graveyard).
I think its relatively safe to back up to the point prior the resolution of the Swan Song; it hasn´t been noticed immediately, but quick enough for me. Only one decission has been made and one action has been taken besides the automatic untap-draw. I will return a random card from Ned´s hand to the top of his library and then tap the lands that were recently untapped. Now there is Magma Spray on the stack, with Swan Song on top of it, and a resolved Grandmaster´s ability online.

The reason I will do this is because I think that we arrive to a more correct game state than partially backing up.
And:

“If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.” (IPG 2.5)

The “disruption” part seems important to me here.

Partial back up: The second Magma spray is on the stack, but now Anne has an additional card, which also happens to be a playable counter. I know they both are responsible for keeping track of the game, and Anna seems to be aware that Swan Song should be in her hand, but nevertheless, she failed to represent it. They both are equally responsible for this illegal state to me.
Back up: Rewinding draws sure is nasty… but here we get to the exact game state that should be, with the only exception of Ned PROBABLY having the top card from his library in his hand at that moment… by the time we get back to Ned´s main phase, the game state would end up being exactly what it should be… Not perfect, but:

“(…) A good backup will result in a situation where the gained information makes no difference and the line of play remains the same (excepting the error, which has been fixed). This means limiting backups to situations with minimal decision trees.” (IPG 1.4)

“Backups involving random/unknown elements should be approached with extreme caution, especially if they cause or threaten to cause a situation in which a player will end up with different cards than they would once they have correctly drawn those cards.” (IPG 1.4)

Having fetches along would probably change my mind, but I assume there aren´t any in this scenario, since their presence would be important to know as to mention them.

I totally loved the last judge podcast (“Be kind, don´t rewind!”), but sadly, I feel like doing it here…

Originally posted by Juan Agustín Cuch:

Back up: Rewinding draws sure is nasty…

In this instance we do not know what format is being played, but should it be something other than standard then rewinding a draw in this instance could possibly cause Ned to change his play. Were Ned to be playing American Miracles then this could potentially become a game altering rewind for Ned. Ex. Bonfire of the Damned, Terminus, Entreat the Angels, etc.

I would give Anne a GPE-GRV for not resolving the Soulfire Grandmaster's ability correctly and give Ned a GPE-FtMGS for letting Anne put the Swan Song into her Graveyard.

The partial fix to this is listed under the (IPG 2.5): :If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, and the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone."

So Anne and Ned would both receive Warnings, the Swan Song would then be returned to Anne's hand and the Game State kept as is.

Edit: I need to get my picture taken. . .

Edited Ashten Fisher (Feb. 19, 2015 06:07:03 AM)

GRV / FtMGS, warning for both, fix by putting song back in hand.

I would have thought everyone's knee-jerk reaction would be missed trigger, but it looks like everyone's on point ;) It's a replacement effect, not a trigger.

Edited Sal Cortez (Feb. 19, 2015 06:37:04 AM)

@juan disrupting the game state was my main concern and I was really divided on which to choose. I do agree it doesn't feel right to return the swan song (which usually signals it isn't the right thing to do). However the philosophy is what convinced me

"While Game Rule Violations can be attributed to one player, they usually occur publicly and both players are expected to be mindful of what is happening in the game. It is tempting to try and “fix” these errors, but it is important that they be handled consistently, regardless of their impact on the game"

This made me feel like while a back up can work when there is a partial fix that works we should use it. Further more it doesn't disrupt the current state of the game but rather a future state.

Ultimately I view the back up being a correct choice and the partial fix being the best choice. However I certainly see the argument against the partial fix

Edited Walker Metyko (Feb. 19, 2015 06:46:53 AM)

Before reading responses: I would give Anne a GPE-GRV warnig and Ned a GPE-FtMGS warning. The Swan Song being put into the graveyard falls under one of the partial fixes for GRV (wrong zone, known to all players, can be moved without disrupting game state) so we can apply that without having to do a full backup. Take a moment to remind both players to be careful with the game state.

After reading responses: I disagree with Juan that a backup (even a “safe” one) would arrive at a more correct game state. We don't know enough information to know whether Ned would still play the Magma Spray into the Swan Song if everything had been done correctly (maybe he's trying to bait out counters and wants the bird tokens), and now that he's seen another card from his draw those lines of play may be even more complicated. If Ned's play is based on the assumption that the Swan Song is definitely in the graveyard and he gets bitten for that with the partial fix, well, that's why he's getting a GPE-FtMGS. I see this as a great education opportunity to dissuade a player from abusing something like this in the future and suffering worse consequences.

I have given this second thoughts…
The game state is legal as it is… maybe not correct or “fair”, but legal.
Ned casted a spell based on the assumption that the counter wasn´t in Anna´s hand…If we rewind, maybe the bolt will just resolve, or it will get strangely countered (either way, decission have been taken on a missrepresented game state); or, fully rewinding, Anna got to know that Ned has drawn a Magma Spray.


I don´t feel very good about it, but I think I changed my mind:
GPE-GRV, Warning for Anna; GPE-FtMGS, Warning for Ned. No back up.
Both players let this mistake occur, so they are both responsible. They allowed an incorrect game state, but it´s not illegal as it is; and taking further action we will make things worse (Anna shouldn´t know that Ned has a new bolt; and the circunstances in which Ned legally casted a spell shouldn´t be so severely different when it gets to resolve!). The second Magma Spray is a critical point here.

It still falls -kinda- in the above quoted part of the IPG, and I wonder…. since the card was known to both players, and they could know where the card should be… is it safe to just partial-fix it, with a spell on the stack? I mean, Ned could know (if he had been paying attention) that the Swan Song should be in Annas hand (as she seems aware of), and that would be the only case in which I would believe it´s ok to partial fix right now… Remember also that the “disruption” thing may make the difference between this mistakes falls in the third partial fix point or it doesn´t.
But we are assuming that the errors are honest (otherwise it gets eve worse) and I feel that we should just look how things are now, and as we see no illegality going on and a spell has been casted (think its something bigger than it looks like, in a rules aspect) we hould let things as they are.
They missplayed things, but did that in tandem, and now the game state has progressed and is this thing we are looking at.

———————————–
EDIT: Walker and Dylan, I really like the points you have made now… Im not certain anymore as I was when I wrote that, but I will hold on to my words for now ant take this as an opportunity to learn! Either way, I will think over the things you have said, which seems very good arguments

Edited Juan Agustín Cuch (Feb. 19, 2015 07:00:52 AM)

Before reading other responses:

As part of resolving Swan Song, Anne should have put the card back in her hand, but instead put it into her graveyard. Ned did not stop her from doing so. Anne has committed a GPE - GRV, and Ned has committed a GPE - FtMGS. Anne and Ned will both receive a Warning.

Now, for the fix. I believe that this might be one of the supported partial fix cases. The IPG says:

If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players,
and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone

So, an object (the card Swan Song) was changing zones (going from Stack to Graveyard), and its identity was known to all players. The question is, can it be moved without disrupting the state of the game? Given that the card in question is a counterspell, and there's a spell on the stack, I don't think it can be. The safest choices here are either to rewind, or leave the game state as is.

I don't feel a rewind would be especially disruptive, and would probably authorize one here. Return the second Magma Spray to Ned's Hand, place a random card from Ned's hand on top of his library, re-tap his permanents, move swan song from graveyard to stack. We're now in the end step of Anne's turn, in the middle of Swan Song resolving. Game play continues.

After reading other responses:

There's some good arguments that a rewind has the potential to be very disruptive here. I'm not sure whether moving the Swan Song back from Graveyard from Hand should be considered disruptive or not.

I would give Anne a Warning, Game rule violation and Ned a Warning for Failure to maintain game state. Since both knew the card as it was put into the wrong zone i would place it into the correct zone, being her hand, and caution both players to pay closer attention.

The Soulfire grand master generates a triggered ability that would change the zone of an object. According to the IPG on missed triggers this must be corrected regardless of the time that had passed, also since it's not a detrimental ability no warning should be issued.

So I would do the following: since the trigger was forgotten and it must resolve The opponent gets to choose whether it gets to resolve immediately or the next time a player would get priority.
I would ask Ned what his choice is on this regard and then return swansong to Ann's hand at the proper time, either immediately or after mana jet resolves.
Again boo penalty issued.

I would give GPE-GRV for Anne and GPE-FTMGS for Ned, both get warnings.

Backing up doesn't seem to work as you're going back through a draw. The fix would be to put a random card back on Ned's library and he might end up with the Magma Spray he just drew still in his hand and therefore able to destroy the Soulfire Grand Master while Anne is tapped out. I'm not sure format being played matters here - we don't necessarily improve the ‘wrongness’ of the game state by applying a back up.

This leaves us with a partial fix, and as has been previously noted the IPG reads:

“If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.”

I would suggest that returning the card to Anne's hand will be disruptive as Ned could have decided to cast his second Magma Spray based on the cards in graveyard and how many cards Anne has in hand - I won't conjecture on what he actually took into account in his decision on casting the spell - and so i would not put the Swan Song back into her hand.

Originally posted by Marc Shotter:

Backing up doesn't seem to work as you're going back through a draw. The fix would be to put a random card back on Ned's library and he might end up with the Magma Spray he just drew still in his hand and therefore able to destroy the Soulfire Grand Master while Anne is tapped out. I'm not sure format being played matters here - we don't necessarily improve the ‘wrongness’ of the game state by applying a back up.

I agree with the point that the backup may change the outcome of the situation. Still, this is not important, because IPG tells us to first look if any partial fixes are possible and only after that check for possible backups.

Originally posted by Carlos Ignacio Ballivian Pedraza:

The Soulfire grand master generates a triggered ability that would change the zone of an object.

Hello Carlos Ignacio,

Actually, it is not a triggered ability. It is a replacement effect.