Hello all.
Today at PPTQ Maribor we had a very interesting situation.
Adam controls a Yasova Dragonclaw and Norman controls a face down Shieldhide Dragon. At the beginning of combat step Adam pays for Yasova Dragonclaw´s trigger and gains control of Norman´s morph. Adam looks at the front side of the morph, atacks with both crits and gives back the morph to Norman, who dosn´t block, and says “your turn”. Norman untaps, draws, plays a land. Norman is thinking wath to do and Adam tries to look again at the front side of the morph saying “what is megamorph cost?”; Norman says “No” and avoids Adam to look at his creature. Adam claims that he may look at it because he was controling it and Norman says that he can´t. Adam looks at Spectator, who says that Adam may ask for oracle text to the judge. Adam says that he only wants to know the megamorph costs of the face down creature, looks at Spectator and asks “it is 6, isn´t it?”. Have any of Adam, Norman and/or Spectator commited an infraction and what would be the fix and penalty if any?
Cheers,
Javier.

So far, nothing seems to have gone wrong - although Adam is wrong about being able to continue to look at a face-down creature that he no longer controls.

The spectator states a simple fact of tournament procedure, it's neither play advice, nor strategic advice.

Adam should not be soliciting Oracle text from spectators - but again, it's not advice.

d:^D

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

Adam says that he only wants to know the megamorph costs of the face down creature, looks at Spectator and asks “it is 6, isn´t it?”

Is this allso ok?.

Example 1 in the definition of OA: A player

seeks play advice or hidden information about his or her match from others once he or she has sat for his or her match.

This seems to have occurred?

It's not hidden information. The identity of the face-down card is hidden information, that he already knows.

He's asking about the text of a card that “may or may not” be in play. Megamorph cost, etc is derived information.

Good morning (in Europe).
My point of view is that.
1. Adam asks for hidden info. (Info from a face down morph that he dosn´t control).
2. Adam dosn´t say at any moment the name of the card, or something that may uniquely identify it (like withe crit from Dragons of Tarkir, with flying lifelink and 3/3). The same way he dosn´t remember the megamorph he may not remember the name or other characteristics of the card.
3. Adam dosn´t remember the actual megamorph cost. He believes that it is 6 (no, it is 7) and is asking for confirmation to Spectator, who potentially can give him the right info.

Tournament Error — Outside Assistance
Definition
A player, spectator, or other tournament participant does any of the following:
• Seeks play advice or hidden information about his or her match from others once he or she has sat for his or her match.

I believe that the situation fixes the description for OA.
But after a long talk with our local L3 and another judge I am not so sure as I was at the beginning. Can u help me understanding why this 100%? Thanks a lot.
I agree that Spectator and norman haven´t commited any infraction.

Cheers,
Javier.

Edited Javier Martin Arjona (June 29, 2015 02:08:00 AM)

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

2. Adam dosn´t say at any moment the name of the card, or something that may uniquely identify it (like withe crit from Dragons of Tarkir, with flying lifelink and 3/3). The same way he dosn´t remember the megamorph he may not remember the name or other characteristics of the card.

In this case, he doesn't need to. He's seen the card previously. His opponent knows what it is. It's clear that he hasn't forgotten it's the megamorph white dragon with lifelink. Obviously when I'm called to the table I'm going to make sure he knows the card he's asking about before I answer, but I don't think he's failing to uniquely identify it. What he doesn't remember is a part of the text box.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

It's clear that he hasn't forgotten it's the megamorph white dragon with lifelink

Why is it clear? The only thing he says about the crit is “it is 6, no?” when asking about the megamorph cost, which was wrong.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

when I'm called to the table I'm going to make sure he knows the card he's asking about before I answer, but I don't think he's failing to uniquely identify it.

I understand why not OA if he can uniquely identify the crit (name, characteristics, picture,….) but: what if he is not able to do so? If he is not able to name the card (or provide data enough to identify it), would it be OA for seeking for hidden info? Why?

Oracle of a card is not hidden info, he isn't asking for hidden info since he is asking about a specific card text, even if he dosnt remember the correct card.
You are able to give him information about the card he is asking for, even if he's asking for a wrong card, unless you can't determine the card he's asking for.

Originally posted by Mario Arjona:

You are able to give him information about the card he is asking for, even if he's asking for a wrong card, unless you can't determine the card he's asking for.

This is what I mean. “White creature with flying from Dragons of Tarkinf with megamorph cost = 6”. How can u identify it? It dosn´t exist. (Let´s imagine that this is what Adam says for identifying the crit, which is not what actualy hapenned).

It's clear because I've a super hard time believing that someone controlled a morph then completely forgot everything about it other than it has an expensive unmorph cost.

I agree with Mark's approach here. Let's give the player a chance to ask
for oracle.

I feel that I will do my usual talk however: please call a judge, never ask
anyone else outside your match for info + why.

I wouldn't feel that this is outside assistance in the same way I can't
see myself ruling OA on someone asking a spectator about oracle.
Den 29 jun 2015 14:48 skrev “Javier Martin Arjona” <

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

It's clear because I've a super hard time believing that someone controlled a morph then completely forgot everything about it other than it has an expensive unmorph cost.

I agree with this, it is very dificult to happen. But, would your rulling be different in the (corner?) case that he forgets everything except an expensive unmorph cost? Why?

If the player genuinely couldn't remember what he looked at, and also couldn't remember enough information about the creature to uniquely identify it, then I'd tell him that I can't lost off every possible card - if he can't uniquely identify it then he/she is kind of stuck and there's not much I can do.

Side note - it's a good idea to avoid looking at the morph yourself during situations like these. If the player just needs the oracle text of a card there should be no need to handle the card itself. It avoids accidents of dexterity and also of your reaction to seeing the card (for what that's worth).

The scenario (as I read it) is about player service not about an infraction.
Most of the confusion here arises from the fact, that the player describes the card by the characteristic he is not sure about. Just make the player ask the right question.

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

…in the (corner?) case that he forgets everything except an expensive unmorph cost…

If the player can't describe the card in a way, which makes clear, what card he means, we can't provide him the oracle text. A “high morph cost” is surely not a sufficient description.

But given the original scenario, it looks like the player knows more than just it has a “high morph cost”.