Comp REL, Please assume no cheating. Puppies thank you, I would post a picture of a very sad puppy if I knew 100% that these forums will allow that. After a while of discussions I wouldn't mind an O response. (Hmmm, I guess if you're not actually O, you can't use s with the O, very cool!)

At the end of Player A's endstep, Player B untaps his lands and waits (Player B also has zero cards in hand at this point), for the entire game, spells have been play during upkeep.

*Player B hesitates after untapping land*
*Player A Puts down Vendilion Clique*
*Player B looks at clique and then him*
Player A: “Cast After Draw Phase”
Player B: “Okay”
*Player B flips over top of deck to show his opponent*
*Both see it's a Entreat the Angels*
“JUDGE!”

Investigation results in A insisting that he meant to play after draw. And that he layed it down early as to stop him right after the draw phase.

The floor judge comes to me with the situation, I want to rewind this situation, it seems like a case of rewinding without penalty (I first said GRV, then saw the error in my ways). So I told him to rewind (without specifying when)

What happened:
Floor judge rewinded to upkeep phase, Player A played brainstorm on upkeep, found force of will to counter.

I can tell you what I wanted to happen at that time:
Rewind to upkeep (time and place of where the players lost track of phases), shuffle Player B's library since the library was “random” at the time Player B drew his card

48 Hours later what I think should've happened:
Rewind to the game action of Player B drawing his card

P.S. Yes, the correct play would've been let Player B pay the miracle cost then clique entreat out of his hand, but we're not judging plays here people!

Edited Eddie Cheung (Nov. 28, 2012 07:13:21 AM)

Hey Eddie.

So, here's my take on the situation…

Player A was clear about when he was casting it (the draw step) and Player B acknowledged that. Flipping the Entreat doesn't change that and we're certainly not going to force Player A to cast the Clique after the Miracle trigger has resolved. So, it becomes a question of “Player A, when exactly are you casting the Clique?” If he says “In response to the miracle”, then it's “Awesome, cast it.” There is no need for a rewind here as Player A hasn't actually done anything yet.

Eddie, I also believe that you are mis-remembering how Miracles work. The Miracle card is revealed and a trigger is put on the stack. When the trigger resolves, the player then has the option to pay the Miracle cost. If they do, put it on the stack. There is no way for a player to pay for the Miracle cost and have the card Cliqued away. The V. Clique has to happen with the Miracle trigger on the stack.

-George FitzGerald
L2, Sarasota, FL

My bad, pay =/= play, silly typos. But just so I got this correct, when Player B flips a miracle card, reveals it, therefore triggering the miracle trigger. There is a moment to strip it out of his hand, and therefore the “play from hand” clause would not apply, and the trigger would be unable to resolve.

That's correct. When you reveal the Miracle, the ability triggers. Since you drew the Miracle card in order to reveal it, it's in your hand. When the triggered ability resolves, you can only cast the card if it's still in your hand. If the ability resolves while the card is no longer in your hand, you can't choose to cast it (the ability does technically still resolve, but you can't choose the impossible action).

702.92a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). “Miracle ” means “You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it’s the first card you’ve drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying rather than its mana cost.”

702.92b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.

Yeah it is that simple.
N proposed a shortcut, A agreed but an unexpected trigger happened and the
shortcut is aborted at that point. Both players may play as normal with the
trigger on the stack.


On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Josh Stansfield <
forum-2024@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> That's correct. When you reveal the Miracle, the ability triggers. Since
> you drew the Miracle card in order to reveal it, it's in your hand. When
> the triggered ability resolves, you can only cast the card if it's still in
> your hand. If the ability resolves while the card is no longer in your
> hand, you can't choose to cast it (the ability does technically still
> resolve, but you can't choose the impossible action).
>
> 702.92a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see
> rule 603.10). “Miracle ” means “You may reveal this card from your hand as
> you draw it if it’s the first card you’ve drawn this turn. When you reveal
> this card this way, you may cast it by paying rather than its mana cost.”
>
> 702.92b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he
> or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her
> hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.
>
>
> ——————————————————————————–
> If you want to respond to this thread, simply reply to this e-email. Or
> view and respond to this message on the web at
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/post/9566/
>
>
> Disable all notifications for this topic:
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/2024/
> Receive on-site notifications only for this topic:
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/2024/
>
> You can change your email notification settings at
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/profiles/edit
>



–
Gareth Pye
Level 2 Judge, Melbourne, Australia
Australian MTG Forum: mtgau.com
gareth@cerberos.id.au - www.rockpaperdynamite.wordpress.com
“Dear God, I would like to file a bug report”

What does Brainstorm and Force of Will have to do with this? Is it just a reference to the Knowledge Pool Scenario?

But yeah, this seems reasonable enough; just tell the players that the miracle now triggers and goes on the stack, and the opponent can respond as he pleases.