This post is seeking YOUR opinion - as there are no current rules in place from what I can tell, for this situation.
Multiplayer REL Draft -
That's right - a table of about 6 players playing free for all in a limited format.
A single player drafts a mill deck in Origins.
Proceeds to “mostly mill” an opponent (there are 4 other players outside the mill “guy”, and the player the mill “guy” is targeting). He has been forced to mill “a couple of times” by a different player, other than the mill “guy”.
The TO has indicated the prize support is a pack per kill.
Now. The player that has been milling is now down to zero cards in library, however no one is forcing him to draw, nor mill any additional cards. The player that has zero cards in his library now begins his turn. Untap, Upkeep, lose…
Who gets his pack?
The player that “mostly” milled? (Remember he was forced to mill once or twice by a different opponent)
Should the pack go to the middle?
Please discuss and support your opinion.
Thanks for any and ALL feedback!

Edited Billy Ray (Aug. 15, 2015 02:52:04 AM)

One way to look at it is that # of cards in lib are a resource much like life totals. A player who does 19 damage to a player but doesn't do the last point would have the same situation?


I don't support running events like this because you get into situations that are really not covered. It is best to define your prize and what that means before the event. Players will try to game the system.

This is off topic for this forum anyway. Regular REL events must follow the MTR, and the only form of multiplayer allowed in the MTR is 2HG.

I understand this may be a bit off topic, but I'm seeking Judge opinion. Do I need to start a new overall thread for that? Because it will be considered off topic for all of the current threads….

As this event could be run as FNM that places it under Reg REL.

Originally posted by Nick Rutkowski:

One way to look at it is that # of cards in lib are a resource much like life totals. A player who does 19 damage to a player but doesn't do the last point would have the same situation?


I don't support running events like this because you get into situations that are really not covered. It is best to define your prize and what that means before the event. Players will try to game the system.

The store is trying to develop a “house rule” for this specific scenario. I'm trying to get feedback from judges to present to the store owner so he can properly determine the “right thing to do” for these situations.

Any any situation where there is doubt as to who gets the pack, I would put it to a vote at the table.

I think Nick's view is good. Let me add to that though: Imagine instead that player A does 12 points of damage to player B. Player C does 6 points of damage to player B. Then, on player B's turn, B casts a Rabid Bloodsucker and promptly loses.

I'd rule the same there as I would for mill. I think I'd award the pack to Player C.

But of course, realistically, I wouldn't be running this event anyway (again: agree with Nick).

Let the player who died decide who's responsible for their death.

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015, 19:29 Aaron Henner <

Run it as Grand Melee so there's almost always a clear “killer”?

I've run many Commander events with points per player “defeated by your actions”. My ruling here, similar to how I ran things at Commander, would be that the person who caused the final card to be milled should get the pack.

Originally posted by Aaron Henner:

Let me add to that though: Imagine instead that player A does 12 points of damage to player B. Player C does 6 points of damage to player B. Then, on player B's turn, B casts a Rabid Bloodsucker and promptly loses.

This is why it's easier to do things by points. I've always done 2 points per opponent that a player defeats, and 1 point for everyone still at the table when a player loses to their own actions, like in this case. It theoretically can make concessions awkward, but I've never had any problems when people conceded in my events. This also absolves players of the need to be obsessive bean counters and tracking every single point of damage/milling, and who caused each.

Assuming that it had to be packs and not points (and thus with no easy division), I'd probably end up giving the back to player B. After all, they did cause a player to lose. In casual formats like these, I think it's best to encourage people to have fun doing silly things (within limits of course), and I think causing yourself to lose to spite the person who was targeting you is plenty silly. Rule of Fun and all that.

Lastly, if none of this appeals to you, you could try givings points/packs by the order in which the players left the game (often the case when I do Conspiracy drafts). In my experience, this causes less confusion but more sour feelings, since too often, players in a winning situation get to play “Might Makes Right”, essentially having the unilateral power to decide who gets 2nd, 3rd, last, etc. I don't like players getting sour, which is why I prefer other methods of determining placing where possible.

Edited Alexandra Yang (Aug. 15, 2015 10:54:01 AM)

I don't seriously see this as a judge problem, more of a TO one, for running an event with such prize support and format…

So, I think it doesn't belong to this forum, sorry. There's no answer we can provide as judges.

I agree, it is a TO problem…however, and once again, I'm asking for judge
opinion. There aren't rules in place for such instances, and the TO wanted
judge feedback. Thanks.
On Aug 17, 2015 2:43 PM, “Joaquín Pérez” <

I've run a lot of events such as these. I've always ruled that if a player
decks out, the prize goes to the player that most recently either milled
him or controlled an effect that caused him to draw. That way you still
reward someone using mill as a victory condition, but still allow people to
steal the kill like they can with normal damage.

Pretty much what Nick said in my opinion, whoever put him at 0 cards in deck before his draw is the one who did the deed.

On the other hand, if I wanted to make this a spicier fun event, I'd make the pack a bonus bounty for the next kill, or give it to the last person standing. Kinda depends on your fair:fun ratio.