Hey! Every one!
A question about how can I catch players that do as follow video in comp REL especially if is in sleeves while I had query about their cards?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEt1bsMvvZI&app=desktop


I just feels like it would be weird to ask player to take a such close look of thier foils to check cards that seems extremely valuable.

–John

Edited john bai (Nov. 26, 2015 11:25:38 PM)

If you want to look at card close-up, that means you have some reasonable suspicion about it or player. Having those, I would be fine with asking player to show me that card unsleeved. Just remember to do that after game or when card in question is known to both players.

Well, let's make my question much clear.



My questuin was more like for the one that I can't even justify is the card real or not. Therefore, with out any evidence, is that ever possiable to check player's card at all as a judge?

–John

Edited john bai (Nov. 27, 2015 01:27:08 AM)

You can always do a targeted deck check if you believe a players deck does not meet the requirements for the tournament and if you believe the player has fake cards you can have a better look at the cards in question during this deck check.

In order to get “evidence”, which regarding fake cards and unless you're an expert, will probably be “fairly certain about they being fake”, you NEED to look closely at the cards (probably without sleeves)

As a judge, you have the right of (politely) asking a player to check his deck or some cards of it, anytime, for any reason (or none at all, you don't need to justify that to a player). If they refuse, you can DQ them as a last resort. Hope it won't be needed :)

Some time ago I read a nice report (or maybe a Judge Article??) about how to handle accusations of fake cards, but I'm unable to find it.

I'd be very hesitant to suggest you can DQ a player for refusing to give you their deck. At most, policy supports USC-Minor here (for failing to follow an instruction from a tournament official). If a player refuses to provide their deck for a check you should certainly take them aside for a discussion of tournament expectations. If they still refuse I'd be having a discussion with the TO about removing the player, but I still see no policy that supports a DQ.

Well, you must play genuine Magic cards in sanctioned tournaments. That's a rule.

USC-Cheating

Definition
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it.
Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.
If all criteria are not met, the offense is not Cheating and is handled by a different infraction. Cheating will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error, and must be investigated by the judge to make a determination of intent and awareness.

Usually, in that extreme cases, the player will lie (“Do you use genuine Magic cards??” “Of course!!”) and is aware it's illegal, gaining advantage…

If you're innocent, you have (usually) no problem in letting a judge inspect your deck or your bag. Privacy concerns don't matter in a deck check, and the player can be physically present if you suspect the reason about his behaviour is about the proper handling of his valuable cards.

However, a player shouldn't be disqualified if you determine they didn't know about the fake cards. In fact, you should be empathic about it. They've probably lost some hundreds (or thousands), so they probably will need to be removed/dropped from the event (if they can't find genuine replacements), but not being more punished. In the report I previously cited worth reading, this was exactly the case, and I recall the TO offered to reimburse them the entry fee. That's great!! :)

Edited Joaquín Pérez (Nov. 27, 2015 07:17:56 AM)

Yes, I agree with what you mentioned there about a further investigation and the illegality of playing fakes. I was only trying to clarify the concept of a DQ for a player not giving you the deck to check. That would certainly go into any investigation, but you can't just DQ for the refusal itself :)

Originally posted by Joaquín Pérez:

Some time ago I read … about how to handle accusations of fake cards, but I'm unable to find it.

http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/post/46966/

I've already forwarded that YouTube link to the fraud e-mail, as I suspect Wizards will want to see that (and I suspect they probably already have, since it's nearly three years old, now).

Also - the technique described in this video will result in cards that are thicker than normal - the process removes a thin layer of ink, then adds a (relatively) much thicker layer of plastic. I can't say for sure, never having handled one myself, but I believe you should be able to identify them by touch.

As in my previous post, I want to emphasize: judges do NOT confiscate suspected counterfeits, nor do we tear them in half or otherwise destroy them, in hopes of proving that they are counterfeit. Encourage the card owner to contact Wizards, who may ask them to submit those cards, and will certainly want any information available about the origin of those cards.

d:^D

Even though we have a opportunity to perform a deck Check, is still hard to make game “fair” to everyone at the point we don't know who have which card is illegal, and in the tournament policy, they suggested 10% of deck check out of all the players. To judge a “fair” event by make sure each single player has not break the policy, should we check 100% of the players instead?



–'John

Originally posted by john bai:

To judge a “fair” event by make sure each single player has not break the policy, should we check 100% of the players instead?

A few thoughts on this, first off as judges we do not have the resources to deck check 100% of the field. 10% deck checks is a nice representative sampling of the decks in the tournament. In addition to that the best way to spot something like this is to be doing what we do best and that is to just watch magic! If we are out there watching magic and we see something suspicious like a potentially fake card then we can perform a deck check on that particular player and take appropriate action if there is a problem. When watching magic we can cover far more in this regard than we can with current resources and deck checking, so I believe that is more fair as that keeps players doing what they came to do and that is play Magic!

Originally posted by Joaquín Pérez:

As a judge, you have the right of (politely) asking a player to check his deck or some cards of it, anytime, for any reason (or none at all, you don't need to justify that to a player)

Is there policy support for doing this in the middle of a game? I've heard of incidents of this happening before and my understanding was that this was not allowed to be done while a game was in progress. A mid-round deck check is one thing, but interrupting a game in progress just to look through their deck (while preserving order) seems disruptive.

(Apologies for the weird quote formatting–I'm posting on mobile.)

Edited Matt Cooper (Nov. 28, 2015 12:20:52 AM)

Originally posted by john bai:

Even though we have a opportunity to perform a deck Check, is still hard to make game “fair” to everyone at the point we don't know who have which card is illegal, and in the tournament policy, they suggested 10% of deck check out of all the players.

In addition to the really good points raised by Nicola, I'd like to add that being fair isn't doing the same deck check on every single player, but making sure that our deck checks targets are chosen and treated fairly: based on unbiased suspicions raised by what happened in the event, and, in absence of such suspicions, randomly amongst all players.

- Emilien

Originally posted by Matt Cooper:

Is there policy support for doing this in the middle of a game?

We discovered a number of counterfeits during the Legacy Grand Prix, in Seattle/Tacoma, a few weeks ago. Some of those were pointed out by opponents who noticed something didn't look right, and called for a judge. And yes, we interrupted games already in progress to address the situation. When our investigation led us to believe “honest mistake”, we would end that game with a Game Loss. If that didn't end the match, we would give the player a few minutes to either find exact replacements, or basic lands, in order to continue playing the match.

I'd like to touch on something else, Joe - don't worry about every player being checked for fakes. Why would you suspect everyone of using fakes? Please, treat your players as honest people until they give you a reason not to.

d:^D

Thanks for the reply, Scott. I can see it being very reasonable with suspected counterfeits and Cheating investigations.

My concern is this: Most of what I've heard of on a local scale was if someone thought a player had, say, one copy of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in their deckbox but had three checklist cards for it in their deck. It seems to me that thumbing through that player's deck to confirm while the game is in progress wouldn't be okay in that case, and that you should do a targeted deck check after that game is over instead of checking for it midgame.