Edited Lyle Waldman (Dec. 22, 2012 06:13:15 AM)
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
1) Can we define “substantial” in terms of “substantial pause” in the MTR definition quoted above?
2) Can we define “gaining information” in terms of the MTR definition quoted above?
3) Can we define “appropriate time” as used in the MTR quote above?
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
Since these two situations above are very clearly (to me, at least, based on the MTR quote above) deviations from the words of MTR, and they were high-profile enough to have been quoted in SCG articles, it seems that perhaps we should retool the trigger rules to make more sense. A deviation once in a while is fine, but when we have 2 unrelated examples in 2 different articles posted on the same day both at high-level events, perhaps there are too many deviations happening. If there are too many deviations happening, that says to me that either high-level judges (who HJ these events) do not know how to apply this rule properly, or they do not care how to apply this rule properly. What can we do about this?
Originally posted by Scott Marshall:
One word … err, one URL:
Toby's blog
Brian Schenck
Here's an exercise for anyone who's trying to define terms… Propose an actual definition. One that can be readily grasped by both the player and judge community. One that makes sense and is enforceable. One that can be adopted locally and internationally, in 6 or more different languages.
Lyle Waldman
1) Can we define “substantial” in terms of “substantial pause” in the MTR definition quoted above?
2) Can we define “gaining information” in terms of the MTR definition quoted above?
3) Can we define “appropriate time” as used in the MTR quote above?
Originally posted by Brian Schenck:
I always dislike trying to analyze rulings after the fact. For one, we're not privvy to both sides of the story. And yes, there are at least two “versions” of events from the perspective of either player, and even what the judge perceives as either player having said during the “investigation”. For another, it's easy to make an arm chair ruling after the fact when you have infinite time to review the MIPG/MTR and can reflect on the specific definitio. For a third, it's easy to confuse a “deviation” with a “difference in judgment” and even a “you had to be there.”
Those are things that come to the top of my mind about why we should instead seek an opinion from the judge in question, or even discuss the rule or policy itself, rather than about a specific ruling. Simply because specific rulings are just that: rulings that are specific to a situation. Some situations, on the surface, may appear exactly the same. Others may not. Without knowing precisely either situation, it then becomes a judgment call as to whether a policy or concept applies. Did the player genuinely miss the trigger? That's a question that often gets lost in the entire narrative of “But he didn't do X!” or “But he did Y, before doing X!” Does OOOS apply? That also gets lost in the narrative of “Well he did Y, then X, so that's okay.” Perhaps the deeper question people should ask is why these policies exist or apply, and how we might apply them for a better experience for both parties. (Or even educate players and other judges that they exist and how they might apply.)
It's tempting to look at a ruling and say “That's just wrong!” without knowing all the facts, or even being in that situation yourself. It's even more tempting to say “But the book says this!” and overlook that we're all human and applying the book is as much about what the books says as it is about your judgment in that situation. (That may seem a hand waive of rulings others make, but sometimes it is better to avoid criticizing what you feel is a bad ruling and rather reflect on why the ruling may have been made that way and what you don't know about the situation that made that ruling the “most appropriate.”)
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
Alright, since you challenged me…
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
A “substantial” game action is any game action. Anything that modifies the board state, causes a game object to enter or be removed from the stack, a change of phase or step, or a stated intent to do one of the above, by Active Player. Any of those is “substantial”.
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
Information is gained if AP has looked at the contents of any zone hidden to him (NAP's hand, his deck, NAP's deck, any cards NAP has face-down, etc), or if AP has put an object on the stack and passed priority to NAP (it does not require NAP passing back).
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
Simply, the appropriate time to take a game action is at the point at which MODO would ask for the game action to be made. A bit more concretely, a game action should be taken when the object the action is taken on is resolving (in the case of on-resolution choices) or being put on the stack (in the case of on-announcement choices).
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
The point I was trying to make was that there seems to be a lot of deviating going on concerning the trigger rules with respect to OOOS. When a lot of deviating happens, that raises a red flag in my mind; in particular, I have to ask myself (and the community) “why do we have rules if we don't follow them?” Of course, once in a while a deviation is appropriate, but when it becomes frequent perhaps there is something at the base of the rule that is being deviated from that is causing the deviations.
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
If applying the book is as much about the wording of the book as it is about my judgment, why do we have a book? Why don't we simply use our own judgment? The reason we have a book, I believe, is so that we can apply the rules consistently and different peoples' judgments won't affect the outcome of a situation; we're all human, and we will judge the same situation in different ways without a book to guide us. In particular, we should try to deviate as little as possible from the book so that we can apply the rules with consistency. If we all start deviating in different ways, then the player base does not know what the rules are. This is why I have a problem with wide-spread deviation (although lot me reiterate that deviation, in moderation, is fine).
Edited Brian Schenck (Dec. 22, 2012 07:19:23 AM)
Originally posted by Brian Schenck:Lyle Waldman
A “substantial” game action is any game action. Anything that modifies the board state, causes a game object to enter or be removed from the stack, a change of phase or step, or a stated intent to do one of the above, by Active Player. Any of those is “substantial”.
You do realize this would entirely invalidate the OOOS concept? That is, as soon as an object left the stack in the wrong order, there's a “substantial game action” per your definition. I activate Arcbound Ravager, sacrifice an artifact, put +1/+1 counter on Ravager, and point out you lose 1 life from Disciple of the Vault, even if I do it just that quickly and in one breath?
Lyle Waldman
Information is gained if AP has looked at the contents of any zone hidden to him (NAP's hand, his deck, NAP's deck, any cards NAP has face-down, etc), or if AP has put an object on the stack and passed priority to NAP (it does not require NAP passing back).
That's not an entirely unreasonable definition, but isn't that largely self evident from the phrase itself? Or, does it recognize that even a simple pass in priority without someone doing anything results in information gain? Because if I have Prodigal Pyromancer on the battlefield, knowing whether you might or might not activate the ability could be relevant when it comes to Champion of the Parish.
Lyle Waldman
Simply, the appropriate time to take a game action is at the point at which MODO would ask for the game action to be made. A bit more concretely, a game action should be taken when the object the action is taken on is resolving (in the case of on-resolution choices) or being put on the stack (in the case of on-announcement choices).
Edited Lyle Waldman (Dec. 22, 2012 07:24:47 AM)
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
Correct. Hence (one of the many reasons) why I think the rule as written in MTR is stupid. However, applying the rule isn't up to whether I think it's stupid or not, it's about applying the rule as written in MTR. If I was to apply the rule as written, then yes, your statement is correct. The rule as written (as opposed to Toby's notes on it) does not allow for any form of OOOS in trigger application; in fact, it expressly forbids OOOS, as I quoted in the OP.
Due to the complexity of accurately representing a game of Magic, it is acceptable for players to engage in a block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete.
All actions taken must be legal if they were executed in the correct order, and any opponent can ask the player to do the actions in the correct sequence so that he or she can respond at the appropriate time (at which point players will not be held to any still-pending actions).
An out-of-order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably affect decisions made later in that sequence.
Players may not try to use opponent's reactions to some portion of an out-of-order sequence to see if he or she should modify actions or try to take additional ones. Nor may players use out-of-order sequencing to try to retroactively take an action they missed at the appropriate time. In general, any substantial pause at the end of a completed batch is an indication that all actions have been taken, the sequence is complete and the game has moved to the appropriate point at the end of the sequence.
Edited Brian Schenck (Dec. 22, 2012 07:38:29 AM)
My point is that this general approach becomes a rabbit hole of more and more concerns. Especially when the underlying problem is about player communication: Some people communicate very specifically and clearly, some people communicate a bit sloppily, some can't communicate at all (i.e., language barriers). and others would like to withhold communication in order to obfuscate the situation (legally or illegally).
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
The point I was trying to make was that there seems to be a lot of deviating going on concerning the trigger rules with respect to OOOS. When a lot of deviating happens, that raises a red flag in my mind; in particular, I have to ask myself (and the community) “why do we have rules if we don't follow them?” Of course, once in a while a deviation is appropriate, but when it becomes frequent perhaps there is something at the base of the rule that is being deviated from that is causing the deviations.
I think “a lot of the deviating” that occurs when relayed in some of these articles is either pretty unique circumstances where it probably should have occurred, or we're missing some of the story that was the reason for the “deviation” and there really wasn't any deviation. Again, that is my point about assessing situations after the fact: We don't have enough information to conclude anything about the ruling. I'm not saying that X player who says Y happened is misrepresenting things, just that he or she is only presenting one aspect of the scenario. We don't have the other player's perspective, nor even the judge's perspective.
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
If applying the book is as much about the wording of the book as it is about my judgment, why do we have a book? Why don't we simply use our own judgment? The reason we have a book, I believe, is so that we can apply the rules consistently and different peoples' judgments won't affect the outcome of a situation; we're all human, and we will judge the same situation in different ways without a book to guide us. In particular, we should try to deviate as little as possible from the book so that we can apply the rules with consistency. If we all start deviating in different ways, then the player base does not know what the rules are. This is why I have a problem with wide-spread deviation (although lot me reiterate that deviation, in moderation, is fine).
Certainly, consistency is a very desirable goal. We want player expectations to be the same at the majority of CompREL experiences they go to. But, even the MIPG itself allows for deviations as necessary. Whether specifically the result of situations where a downgrade is required (as a “card in unique position to be identified” when a card isn't revealed and should be), or where a downgrade is at the Head Judge's discretion (as with Deck/Decklist problems). The point about the Missed Trigger policy is that it needs to make sense in context. The context being “Did the player actually miss the trigger?” not “Did the player somehow do X wrong, where X is the most technical thing he should have done?”
That is where you need to apply judgment in assessing if the infraction even took place at all.
Consider this, if Missed Trigger policy somehow “supercedes” OOOS, why doesn't the normal Game Rule Violation do the same? If that's the case, should every player who miscasts Fireball receive a Warning?
Originally posted by Brian Schenck:Lyle Waldman
Correct. Hence (one of the many reasons) why I think the rule as written in MTR is stupid. However, applying the rule isn't up to whether I think it's stupid or not, it's about applying the rule as written in MTR. If I was to apply the rule as written, then yes, your statement is correct. The rule as written (as opposed to Toby's notes on it) does not allow for any form of OOOS in trigger application; in fact, it expressly forbids OOOS, as I quoted in the OP.
Well, I think if you're going to start calling things in the MTR “stupid”, that is a very quick way to simply discourage any further discussion on a topic. Especially since I think you only quoted portions of the article to support your OP.
If we look at the definition in full…Due to the complexity of accurately representing a game of Magic, it is acceptable for players to engage in a block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete.
All actions taken must be legal if they were executed in the correct order, and any opponent can ask the player to do the actions in the correct sequence so that he or she can respond at the appropriate time (at which point players will not be held to any still-pending actions).
An out-of-order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably affect decisions made later in that sequence.
Players may not try to use opponent's reactions to some portion of an out-of-order sequence to see if he or she should modify actions or try to take additional ones. Nor may players use out-of-order sequencing to try to retroactively take an action they missed at the appropriate time. In general, any substantial pause at the end of a completed batch is an indication that all actions have been taken, the sequence is complete and the game has moved to the appropriate point at the end of the sequence.
…the first section should very clearly establish the purpose of the policy and why we have it. It's pretty much an important part of how people actually play Magic. Both at the kitchen table and in competitive environments.
Further, two questions: Why would the policy not apply to missed triggers “explicitly” and yet somehow apply to normal game rules, like the steps to casting a spell? Or, why wouldn't a clear “block of actions” matter for OOOS, especially when a person does them quickly and the amount of information gain (even under your definition) would be minimal? Because even if were to “gain information”, it often takes a lot to consider and reflect on it. Something that often doesn't happen in the short amount of time it takes to do things in the wrong order.
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
I'd be interested to know how you would apply the MTR to the situations mentioned in the OP in such a way that they are not considered deviations. I can't think of such a rationale.
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
I'd be wary of using the word “infraction” here; I'm not taking issue with when/how we hand out penalties. That opens up a new can of worms, and I'm not sure this thread is the proper one to discuss that.
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Could you clarify?
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
Once again, you are correct. However the purpose of the policy and its implementation, in this case, are counter to one another. Should we implement the purpose and intent of the policy (and thus open ourselves up to deviations and inconsistency) or should we implement the letter of the law (and thus discard the purpose)? I accept that both are important, but in a case such as this one where the two seem contradictory, I think we should strive towards consistency so that the players understand how the rules work simply by reading MTR as opposed to having to guess how a given judge will act in a given situation.
Matthew Johnson
Yes, I think this would be of much help. I have noticed several times now with things like the Knowledge Pool questions that where the answer involves a matter of judgement the answer has been given along the lines of “If you back up then do X, if you do not then do Y. Whether to back up is a matter of judgement”. This is all well and good, but doesn't actually help people to improve their judgement in these matters. While of course you can't say “this is the right answer” for matters of judgement, we should be trying to work towards a consistent judgement of situations across the judge community and the only way that can happen is through sharing situations and justifying the judgement call which was made.
Edited Brian Schenck (Dec. 22, 2012 11:10:06 PM)
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