With Sylvan Library coming up in Eternal Masters, and a nonzero number of EMA PPTQs happening, I feel like policy and the official fix don't match up for me.

Official fix when you muddle the hand together:
AP decides how much life they will pay (0,4,8). They then reveal their hand and NAP selects the corresponding number of cards (2,1,0 respectively) to shuffle into library.

From the IPG on HCE
“This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both before and after the error. A set is a physically distinct group defined by a game rule or effect. It may correspond to a specific zone, or may only represent a part of a zone.”

The “part of a zone” makes me feel like “drawn this turn/not” are parts of the Hand zone. I feel the player should reveal their hand, and the opponent should choose which X cards were drawn this turn (typically three, but instants exist), then the player resumes resolving their sylvan library trigger, choosing to be 0,4,8 life and returning 2,1,0 cards. Also then because the cards were put into the hand by the fix, you also don't shuffle the library.

Additional Remedy note
“Excess cards are returned to the correct zone. If that zone is the library, they should be shuffled into the random portion. The player does not repeat the instruction or partial instruction (if any) that caused the infraction.”



I look at this, and it feels like that's where policy should get us, the trigger is resolving in the most strategically unfavorable distribution possible with the legal set of cards that should be in the hand. Also feels less disruptive.

As a “corner” case, let's assume a player has five lands and a lightning bolt in their hand after drawing from SL. If they were to resolve the trigger correctly, there's no way they can't choose to keep the Bolt in their hand, and they can do so even through the remedy. With the current fix they need to pay 8 life in order to keep it.

It's certainly possible that I'm going too deep into specific verbiage in the IPG and am placing too much value on making the game state “look like it would have”, but I prefer fixes that are more restorative and less punishing. Thoughts? Comments? Am I the only one who likes this idea?

Originally posted by Joseph Steet:

Official fix when you muddle the hand together:
AP decides how much life they will pay (0,4,8). They then reveal their hand and NAP selects the corresponding number of cards (2,1,0 respectively) to shuffle into library.

What's the source on this?

My understanding from past Sylvan Library discussions (mainly posts in them by Uncle Scott) is that if a player mixes the cards together, the “fix” is that they pay 8 life (which is not technically a “fix”; they can't return the cards, so they have to pay the life).

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2016/01/25/the-hidden-corners-of-hce/

Toby had a follow up post later, most of these fixes changed, but the Sylvan Library fix did not.
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2016/04/04/revisiting-the-hidden-corners-of-hce/

Edited Joseph Steet (June 2, 2016 05:55:54 PM)

Originally posted by Joseph Steet:

The “part of a zone” makes me feel like “drawn this turn/not” are parts of the Hand zone. I feel the player should reveal their hand, and the opponent should choose which X cards were drawn this turn (typically three, but instants exist), then the player resumes resolving their sylvan library trigger, choosing to be 0,4,8 life and returning 2,1,0 cards. Also then because the cards were put into the hand by the fix, you also don't shuffle the library.

If the player ends up deciding to pay 8 life after you've applied the fix, do you retroactively revoke the warning? After all, under that scenario, no game rules have been violated.

I'd like to point out this excellent blog post by L3 Josh Stansfield on the
Rules Tips blog:

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2016/05/when-sylvan-library-collides-with-competitive-tournament-magic/

//DLI

Eli, I actually would still assess the Warning, assuming that they didn't lead with “I'll pay 8 and make this all legal” (need to fix that in my remedy!). To me the HCE error is that they didn't keep the cards separate, which is why the opponent is getting to look at the hand. You can have a chicken/egg problem where they weren't going to pay any life because they drew duds, but after the remedy they have some bombs on the library's chopping block so now they wish to pay 8 life. I did really like your question, it made me think.

DLI, thank you for linking to that article!

Edited Joseph Steet (June 3, 2016 03:47:20 PM)

Thanks for the links to Toby & Josh's articles!

To me the fix as described by Josh looks very elegant and tidy to me. If a player is playing Sylvan Library, then it is on them to play it correctly both in rules and tactical terms. If they mistakenly mix their hand together, then the error is theirs and they should be understanding that the fix for it may disadvantage them.

There are lots of cards in Magic where misplaying them (either in rules terms or strategically) leads to some major disadvantages, but if the disadvantage is all on the player who both chose to run the card and then made the error, that doesn't seem like something we should worry over.

tl;dr
“The fix is bad for you, but you chose to run Library and then made the mistake with it, so that's that.”

Another important takeaway from this: when you're HJ for a Comp REL event that includes Sylvan Library, please remind your players to use the card correctly (i.e., keep separate those cards that were drawn). Prevention is far better than any remedy.

d:^D