GPT top 8 run at Competitive REL due prize pool, NAP asks for a judge, HJ takes the call, NAP told him that his opponent played Iskanah(with Delirium), then a land and then reached for the spider tokens, so he shouldn't be able to put the tokens since he played a land thus missed the trigger, HJ agreed with him so AP doesn't put the tokens in play.

Was this missed trigger or OoS? I was watching from afar so I didn't hear if AP announced the tokens trigger but I saw that he played 2 cards and reached for his deckbox taking the tokens, all of this was very quickly without any pauses, that and the fact that no opponent interaction was needed and the player didn't gain strategic information made me think that it was OoS.

Would have mattered that the player announced audibly the trigger or not?

I posted this in another OoOs thread, but I think its probably pertinent:

Out of Order Sequencing doesn't translate well to forum posts, since its intended to reflect how players play magic in person. Without the nuances you'll get from interviewing the players it is incredibly difficult to convey those in text.


Did the player's actions meet the following criteria:

The actions actually have to be a batch or block of actions, which means there’s no substantial pause between the individual actions in the batch.
An out-of-order sequence can’t result in any player prematurely gaining information that would reasonably affect decisions later in that sequence. So using OoOS as a way to “game” an opponent’s reactions isn’t permitted.

If so, ruling as OoOS applies. But again, me not getting to interview the players or see the physical actions performed makes it difficult.

Onto your question about announcing the trigger.

If the player explicitly announced the trigger but failed to put the tokens in play this is treated as a GRV:

Originally posted by IPG2.1:

Once any of the above obligations has been fulfilled, further problems are treated as a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation.

Edited Jeff S Higgins (Dec. 23, 2016 08:32:05 PM)

Originally posted by Jeff S Higgins:

If the player explicitly announced the trigger but failed to put the tokens in play this is treated as a GRV

I think if a player announced the trigger but didn't resolve it, it's still a Missed Trigger and not a GRV as the player didn't aknowlege it the first time it matter.
The part of the IPG you quotted is here to handle problem like a player dealing 2 damage for the trigger of a Sword of fire and ice but not drawing for it or, for Ishkanah, Grafwidow, a player creating 4 tokens instead of 3.

For the OoOS Vs Misstriger part, I agree with Jeff, it's a “You have to be there”.

Edited Pascal Gemis (Dec. 23, 2016 11:07:26 PM)

From the AIPG: “It is also a Game Rules Violation if you acknowledge a trigger at the proper time or earlier, and then, because of multiple things on the stack, you forget to resolve it.”

Just to make sure everything is clear:

Ishkanah, land, Tokens, go. All of this done in something like 3 seconds without hesitation would be OoOS?

Iskanah, flickers his hand, land, checks opponent graveyard to count for Delirium, Tokens, go. This would be missing trigger since there was considerable time between actions?

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/03/understanding-out-of-order-sequencing/

This is a really great article that helps elaborate on OoOS. I'd encourage you to check it out.

Like I said earlier, translating player actions to text leaves out things. Use your judgment. Was AP doing all these things in one fell swoop to save some time? Were they trying to gauge NAP's responses with their pauses? Do you think they forgot the tokens trigger and only remembered it after they played the land?

Thanks I already read that article since that ruling bothered me, not because I thought the HJ was wrong but because I thought I was as you said it comes down to “you had to be there”. As I saw how he played the cards to me it seemed that he was trying to save time by playing fast, maybe it was the pressure to be top 8 but to me I didn't had a doubt that he tried to do something fishy/forgot his trigger, don't know what the HJ saw or what he inferred from players interviews. I'll show the article to him anyways just so he knows he could have ruled different since in the brief conversation I had with him he said he could only rule it as missing trigger due AP playing the land before the tokens, didn't matter that be played all the cards in one fell swoop giving the impression that he didn't forgot his trigger.