Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

April 12, 2017 01:49:16 PM

Jeff S Higgins
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), TLC

USA - Northwest

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

Welcome back to this week's Knowledge Pool! This week we have a Silver scenario, so if you are an L2 please wait until your FNM has begun to contribute.

Anduin and Nythendra are playing in a Kaladesh/Aether Revolt Sealed PPTQ. On Anduin's turn, he casts Lathnu Hellion. Nythendra has no response, and Anduin says “Gain 2 energy?” Nythendra nods approvingly. Anduin then asks if he can go to combat, and attacks with the Hellion and a Longtusk Cub. Nythendra says “no blocks”, and both players adjust life totals. Anduin then says “Go.” Nythendra untaps and draws a card, then proclaims "Hey, you didn't get energy for the Longtusk Cub dealing damage to me!“ Anduin's replies ”right, I completely forgot. I also forgot my Lathnu Hellion trigger.“ At this point Nythendra raises her hand and calls ”Judge!" What do you do?

April 12, 2017 02:02:07 PM

Gediminas Usevičius
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

Europe - North

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

Longtusk Cub ability was missed and that's it - no remedy.
About Lathnu Hellion trigger. There has been a lot of debate before and I haven't seen a unified answer.
I would like to point out that both triggers were missed and let NAP put one, both or neither triggers on the stack.
Ofc, all of this, if I believe AP was not trying to cheat by not announcing Lathnu Hellion's ability

Edited Gediminas Usevičius (April 12, 2017 02:02:30 PM)

April 12, 2017 02:04:55 PM

Andrew Villarrubia
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - South

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

Anduin receives a GPE - Missed Trigger warning for forgetting the detrimental trigger from Lathnu Hellion (but not for missing the Cub's, since that's a beneficial trigger.)

Fixes:

Lathnu Hellion specifies a default action, so Nythendra can choose to resolve the trigger with the default option (e.g., sacrificing the Hellion).

For the Cub's trigger, Nythendra chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack.

April 12, 2017 05:54:29 PM

April Miller
Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

The Longtusk Cub trigger is considered a missed trigger, but because it was missed within the last turn cycle (during Anduin's combat, and we are now in Nythendra's draw step), the opponent may choose to put it on the stack now. GPE - Missed Trigger, no penalty.
If the ability was missed prior to the current phase in the previous turn, instruct the players to continue playing…If the triggered ability isn’t covered by the previous two paragraphs, the opponent chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack. –IPG 2.1

The Lathnu Hellion trigger is a little different. Because the trigger has a default action, we give the opponent the opportunity to put the trigger on the stack now, with the default action. For this, Anduin receives GPE - GRV for missing a “detrimental” trigger.

Sidenote: Nythendra SHOULD NOT receive a GPE - FtMGS for Anduin's missed triggers.
Not reminding an opponent about his or her triggered abilities is never Failure to Maintain Game State nor Cheating. –IPG 2.6

April 15, 2017 10:03:42 AM

Russell Gray
Judge (Level 1 (Historical))

USA - Southeast

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

The Lathnu trigger here is an interesting one. The only action Anduin has taken which constitutes missing the trigger is admitting he forgot it. If instead of saying “I also forgot my Lathnu trigger”, he had said “You never gave me a chance to pay my Lathnu trigger”, the ruling would be different. However, the players do agree on reality, so I'm going to treat it as missed.

The Longtusk Cub trigger is a non-detrimental trigger, so there is no penalty here.
The Lathnu trigger is a detrimental trigger with a default action. So Anduin will receive a warning for GPE-Missed Trigger.
Nythendra is going to get some choices here. First, she'll have the choice to immediately resolve the default option for Lathnu Hellion, and have Anduin sacrifice it. She could choose to have him sacrifice it, or let him keep it, but choosing to let him pay now is not an option. Then she'll have the choice of placing the Longtusk Cub trigger on the stack right now or not.

April 15, 2017 06:29:39 PM

David Rockwood
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southeast

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

Anduin missed both of his triggers. Nythendra chooses to place the longtusk cub trigger on the stack now or not. Lathnu Hellion's trigger is detrimental so Anduin receives a Warning for GPE-Missed Trigger. It has a default action so Nythendra may choose to leave it missed, resolve it now (next priority), or resolve it at the start of the next phase (the first time a player would get priority.) This cannot be responded to, and if it is resolved Anduin must sacrifice his hellion as that is the default action.

April 17, 2017 12:52:40 PM

Jeff S Higgins
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), TLC

USA - Northwest

The Lathnu Time I'll Forget! - SILVER

Time to wrap this one up!

Everyone correctly identified the fix for the Longtusk Cub: no penalty and Nythendra gets the choice to add the trigger to the stack or not.

Russell was the first to correctly identify the correct remedy for the Lathnu Hellion, with David elaborating on some helpful specifics.

For the Lathnu Hellion trigger, Nythendra gets the choice of either:
Resolve the default action the next time a player would receive priority
Do nothing and leave it missed

Thank you all for participating, and we'll see you next time, on the Knowledge Pool!

Edited Jeff S Higgins (June 8, 2017 08:06:42 AM)