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Competitive REL » Post: Discard partial fix

Discard partial fix

July 15, 2017 11:26:40 AM

Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa
Judge (Level 2)

France

Discard partial fix

While eternalizing Sunscourge Champion a player forgets to pay the discard cost. He notices this after already putting a token in play. While discussing this with some judges they said we couldnt oblige the player to discard the card because he was commiting a illegal action and we shouldnt oblige him to take the correct action. They mentioned CR 720.

But i belive we can use the partial fix:

• If a player forgot to draw cards, discard cards, or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player does so.

I dont't see where in the IPG or AIPG there is a difference between it being a cost, effect, choice or not.

What do you guys think about it?

Edited Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa (July 20, 2017 11:53:31 AM)

July 15, 2017 02:38:17 PM

Bruna Chiochetta
Judge (Level 2), Regional Coordinator (Brazil), TLC

Brazil

Discard partial fix

I am one of judges involved in the discussion and I would like to share my point of view on the matter:
The player didn't realize he had to discard to activate the ability. When he notices that, after resolving it, he says he does not want to discard. We can't force the player to activate an abily he doesn't want to.
When the cast or activation of a spell or ability is illegal, we backup it and cancel all the payments already done. I'm seeing this like casting a Brainstorm with G, while having the right mana to pay for it. We do not tap the Blue land, we backup it.
Gabriel's point is very good, as seen on this KP scenario: https://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/33720/
The partial fix might apply when paying costs incorrectly, but I don't think it is the same situation here.

July 15, 2017 10:12:26 PM

Brian Ross
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Discard partial fix

Hmm, simple backups are ‘the last action’ - while activating+resolving is technically two actions, it strikes me that this is a pretty clear example of applying a ‘simple’ backup making things much smoother. Are simple backups explicitly only allowed to undo a single action? Is resolving the ability not considered completed, or does that even matter?

July 16, 2017 09:15:19 AM

Florian Horn
Judge (Level 3), Grand Prix Head Judge, Scorekeeper

France

Discard partial fix

I don't think that whether we can do a ‘simple backup’s is the interesting part of that question.

Let's say we found out three turns later. Should we force the player to discard?

If it is later during the same turn, do we consider a real backup? A partial fix? Leaving the game as it is?

July 16, 2017 09:34:53 AM

Tate Prodigalidad
Judge (Level 2)

USA - Midatlantic

Discard partial fix

I'm inclined to agree with Gabriel, and I believe it does fall into that partial fix and only that partial fix. Since we're using the IPG to determine the fix, I'm assuming this is Comp REL. As such, there is an expectation that the players “know how their cards work.” I also don't see this as forcing a player to activate an ability that they don't want to, as they already activated it. Assuming they had a card in hand to discard, the activation was legal. The part that was illegal was resolving the ability before all costs were paid, so even if we were to take the backup approach, we would backup to the point where the costs of the activation are being paid, with the intent of putting the ability on the stack.
There's also the added potential for abuse for the player activating the ability if we just say “okay we'll backup and you don't have to activate the ability or pay the costs.” They could just try to activate it, not fully pay the costs, and hope to get away with it. I know that we treat Cheating as its own infraction outside of mistakes, but the reason we have fixes in the first place is to have some kind of way to deter it from happening.

July 16, 2017 09:53:47 AM

Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa
Judge (Level 2)

France

Discard partial fix

Hey there Flo :D

I don't think that whether we can do a ‘simple backup’s is the interesting part of that question.

So what is your opinion on the original question?

Let's say we found out three turns later. Should we force the player to discard?

If it is later during the same turn, do we consider a real backup? A partial fix? Leaving the game as it is?

If i found out three turns later i would leave as it is. No way a backup will be made here.

If it was found out later during the same turn it would depend on what was played after. But most probably i think we should do the partial fix still.

July 16, 2017 11:16:30 AM

Dustin De Leeuw
Judge (Level 3), L3 Panel Lead, Tournament Organizer

BeNeLux

Discard partial fix

Originally posted by Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa:

If i found out three turns later i would leave as it is. No way a backup will be made here.

If it was found out later during the same turn it would depend on what was played after. But most probably i think we should do the partial fix still.

This strikes me as curious. I agree that a back up after 3 turns is impossible, and that a back up after a short time may be possible. However, for the partial fixes, there is no time limit: if you want to apply a partial fix, per the IPG it's independent of how much has happened since the error.
So, either you're 1) in favour of doing the partial fix, in which case you should always apply it or 2) not in favour of the partial fix, so back up or elave it as it is.

What I believe Florian is hinting at: the interesting question is not the simple back up, but whether you believe we should always or never apply the partial fix for not discarding as part of a cost. Let's delve deeper into that!

July 16, 2017 11:35:56 AM

Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa
Judge (Level 2)

France

Discard partial fix

However, for the partial fixes, there is no time limit

Ok i agree with this. I thought that a partial fix after three turns would be too disruptive too. But you're completly right. Specially with this:

So, either you're 1) in favour of doing the partial fix, in which case you should always apply it or 2) not in favour of the partial fix, so back up or elave it as it is.

Thanks a lot Dustin =D

July 16, 2017 12:03:50 PM

Bruna Chiochetta
Judge (Level 2), Regional Coordinator (Brazil), TLC

Brazil

Discard partial fix

I think that what we are missing here is that the partial fix only applies when a simple backup is not possible:

If the infraction falls into one of the following categories, and only into that category, perform the fix specified unless a simple backup is possible:

And in the present scenario the simple backup is possible.
I think that the partial could apply if the error was discovered after some time. On my first post I mentioned a scenario where an additional cost of discard was not payed and the partial fix was used.

Edited Bruna Chiochetta (July 16, 2017 12:15:02 PM)

July 17, 2017 02:46:40 AM

Isaac King
Judge (Level 2)

Gainesville, Florida, United States of America

Discard partial fix

Originally posted by Bruna Chiochetta:

I think that what we are missing here is that the partial fix only applies when a simple backup is not possible:

If the infraction falls into one of the following categories, and only into that category, perform the fix specified unless a simple backup is possible:

And in the present scenario the simple backup is possible.

We are past the point of the last action being the error, so a simple backup isn't an option here.

IPG 1.4:
Some remedies state a simple backup may be performed. A simple backup is backing up the last action completed (or one currently in progress) and is sometimes used to make another portion of the prescribed remedy smoother. A simple backup should not involve any random elements.

July 20, 2017 11:37:05 AM

Florian Horn
Judge (Level 3), Grand Prix Head Judge, Scorekeeper

France

Discard partial fix

Thanks Dustin, that was exactly my point. And you also pointed out the contradiction I found.

If it is possible, I'd like to backup if a backup is possible, and to partial fix otherwise. I just don't know if the policy allows me to do that.

July 20, 2017 11:47:44 AM

Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa
Judge (Level 2)

France

Discard partial fix

Can we get an ‘O’ficial answer on it? This kind of interaction is very likely to happen in the next weekend GPs and in the upcoming sealed events.

Edited Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa (July 20, 2017 11:48:25 AM)

July 20, 2017 11:55:36 AM

John Brian McCarthy
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Grand Prix Head Judge

USA - Midatlantic

Discard partial fix

Originally posted by Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa:

Can we get an ‘O’ficial answer on it? This kind of interaction is very likely to happen in the next weekend GPs and in the upcoming sealed events.

As requested, locking thread pending (O)fficial answer.

Aug. 31, 2017 03:51:04 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Discard partial fix

While I remain mildly curious (and fairly skeptical) about the actual frequency of this occurring, I do apologize for not being able to attend to everything at once, thus delaying this response.

First - be careful in how much you try to stretch the idea of simple backups - we call them simple for a reason. Don't try to do too much with these.

I discussed this a bit with Toby Elliott, who is really The Dude when it comes to Policy; he offered this:
"A simple backup has a specific definition. In this case, it’d be a player paying for Sunscourge Champion, not discarding, and putting it onto the battlefield. If the opponent then pointed out that there was a discard involved, we could apply a simple backup and let the player not play the Champion. Beyond that, they should probably pay more attention about discarding cards, lest they suddenly find that they have to do so.”

Originally posted by Isaac King:

We are past the point of the last action being the error, so a simple backup isn't an option here.
Yep - as Isaac points out, we're not doing a Simple Backup here, but we can apply the Partial Fix, and require a discard right now. Either player - or even both of them - might feel disadvantaged by the timing of that, but - hey, one of them committed a Game Rule Violation, the other Failed to Maintain the Game State. Live and learn, my friends.

d:^D

Aug. 31, 2017 09:39:26 PM

Isaac King
Judge (Level 2)

Gainesville, Florida, United States of America

Discard partial fix

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

A Simple backup has a specific definition. In this case, it’d be a player paying for Sunscourge Champion, not discarding, and putting it onto the battlefield. If the opponent then pointed out that there was a discard involved, we could apply a Simple backup and let the player not play the Champion.

I'm a little confused by this part. If the eternalize ability has resolved, aren't we past the point of a simple backup? The last action was creating a token, not failing to discard.