Hello everyone and welcome back to the Knowledge Pool. This week we have another Silver scenario, so L2s should wait until Friday to join in.

You are a floor judge for Day 2 of a Modern Grand Prix. Adrian plays his second land, then casts Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Natalie lets Thalia resolve, and at the end of Adrian's turn, casts Fatal Push, targeting Thalia, by tapping her only land. Adrian shrugs and moves Thalia to the graveyard. Natalie untaps, draws for turn, then Adrian points out that Natalie could not cast the Fatal Push due to Thalia's cost increase. They call for a judge, and Adrian tells you that he received penalties for the same mistake twice yesterday.

What do you do?

First, I think you mean in the last sentence "Natalie tells you that she received penalties…“ While the third and subsequent Game Play Error in the same category should be upgraded to a game loss, the ”count“ is reset between days at a multi-day event. So, the confession will only impact how closely I watch play going forward. There will be no upgrade.

Second, we have an infraction by both players. It is a Game Play Error - Game Rules Violation for Natalie (Improperly paying the cost to cast a spell) and a Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain the Game State for Adrian. Both of these will be a warning.

Third, we have a fix. GPE-GRVs allow for a backup. Nothing substantial has happened since the error; therefore, it seems better to back up than to leave the game as it is. We will have Natalie put a random card on top of the library to undo the draw, retap the land. Adrian will then put Thalia back on the battlefield. Natalie will untap her land and return Fatal Push to hand. The fact that Adrian knows Natalie has a fatal push is really a small ”impact" to the game as it's the type of card that would be played around in Modern anyway. We proceed with the turn from the phase where the spell was cast.

Last, we give a time extension fitting to the time this took and note the warnings on the match slip.

As a side question. Does an upgrade to gl for 3 strikes require the HJs approval? Or is it like a tardy or deck list problem where even a floor judge is pre-authorized to administer it?

Edited Mark Mason (July 27, 2017 02:57:53 AM)

Mark, great response, thank you for that!

I am however missing a crucial part of taking this call…

Originally posted by Michiel Van den Bussche:

Mark, great response, thank you for that!

I am however missing a crucial part of taking this call…

L2 friend, are you referring to an investigation? I've reread my answer. Even edited it a little to tighten up pronoun references and structure. However, I don't see what else I may have overlooked. I believe that the “way it's done” at the Knowledge Pool is to assume there is no cheating. However, to support this… …I noticed that “both players called for a judge. AND, that the miscasting player confessed to having had 2 warning for this very thing the day before”. That is, the player seems rather forthright.

Was it the lack of investigation? If not, could you give me a hint?

I think Mark has hit in on the head with most of the fix.

The penalties tracked reset each day, so the 2 FtMGS that Adrian got yesterday are irrelevant.

Natalie will receive a Warning for GPE - GRV, for improperly paying the cost for a spell, and Adrian will get a warning for FtMGS, for not noticing the error immediately.

I feel that there is sufficient reason to backup, and no influencing factors like fetches on field, and due to it being so early, there are not any other real play options that could be made.

Assuming neither player would like to appeal, I will call for a judge to watch the table while I check with the Head Judge for permission to backup (Due to being a floor judge at a GP). If the backup is passed, I will put a random card from Natalie's hand onto the top of her library, tap her land, return Fatal push to her hand and Thalia to the battlefield for Adrian, then untap Natalie's land.

A time extension will be given, and penalties marked, and play will continue from the phase when the Push was cast.

Callum, note that FtMGS are never upgraded, per IPG 2, so even if they were on the same day it wouldn't matter. If Mark is right and it's actually Natalie who got two GRVs yesterday, then the reset is important.

Mark, I think the missing part is contacting the HJ to authorize the backup.

I agree that backing up is fine here, since Natalie will almost certainly just draw whatever card we end up putting back, but this raised a related question for me. It seems there's a general understanding that if Natalie controls a fetchland, we don't back up. But what if we were in a situation where Natalie had a fetchland in hand that Adrian didn't know about, and the backup is taking place entirely within Natalie's turn? Can we use our knowledge that she could play and activate the fetch before drawing the card we return to the library to decide not to back up? That seems to be in line with the guidance in IPG 1.4, but it also risks revealing information about Natalie's hand to Adrian, to whom we will be unable to satisfactorily explain why we're not backing up.

Thanks everyone for the responses, Mark has once again gotten to the correct answer first.

Natalie receives a Warning for a Game Rules Violation, and Adrian receives a Warning for Failure to Maintain Game State. Failure to Maintain is not upgraded after a third warning, and penalties also do not upgrade across days in a multi-day event. Let both players know this, and we should thank Adrian for being honest. The game should be backed-up to the point where Fatal Push was cast, including selecting a random card in Natalie's hand, returning it to the top of her library, returning Fatal Push to her hand at the end of Adrian's turn, and untapping the land.

As was noted by everyone, such a rewind should be confirmed by the Head Judge or a judge who has been authorized to approve rewinds.

We would advise also letting whoever confirms the rewind know of Adrian's three Failure to Maintain Game State penalties, as if Adrian is often forgetting about Thalia, it is possible that he is forgetting in his favor as well.

Edited Joe Klopchic (Aug. 2, 2017 12:03:22 PM)

What was the thought process for GRV/FtMGS over double GRV?

I'll let the AIPG do the talking as it explains the situation very well.

Originally posted by IPG 2.5, in part:

If the judge believes that both players were responsible for a Game Rule Violation, such as due to the existence of replacement effects or a player taking action based on another player’s instruction, both players receive a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation. For example, if a player casts Path to Exile on an opponent’s creature and the opponent puts the creature into the graveyard, both players have committed this infraction.

As always, both players are responsible for maintaining a clear game state. If my card tells you to take an action, and you do it incorrectly, whose fault is it? Yours for doing the action incorrectly, or mine for not making sure my spell resolved correctly? Turns out, in this case, it’s reasonable to say we are both equally at fault. It’s important to realize this is only for active effects. If player A forgets to pay 1 more when casting a shock because he forgot about player N’s Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, that is not considered an active effect on player N’s part. In that case, the error is on player A’s shoulders, and player N should get a Failure to Maintain Game State.