Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

Aug. 31, 2017 04:59:39 PM

Jake Eakle
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

I'm pretty on board with the “HCE + thoughtseize the SB 4 times” plan, though I do think the definition of “Set” needs to be updated to obviously include cards outside the game. Or maybe just sideboards? An interesting point is that if the hand had been shuffled in with (same-sleeved) cards that were totally irrelevant to the game, it would actually be much more straightforward, if a little time-consuming, to fix the issue by referring to the decklist. So maybe that's not even HCE, and non-SB cards don't need to a Set.

I also agree with Mark McGovern that we can look for ways to optimize a little, by asking questions and inspecting the two groups of sideboard cards. For instance, if the group of 11 is 4 copies each of two SB cards and 3 of another, grouped as you'd expect, and the 8 is 4 more copies of another SB card and 4 randomly assorted cards, and both players agree that that group might have been the one the hand got added to, we can probably just thoughtseize the 8.

Regarding the point that Gediminas raised:
Originally posted by Gediminas Usevičius:

Would you do the same if the hand was shuffled in the library, not SB?

I currently think it's fine to thoughtseize the library in that case, yeah. It does seem kind of extreme, but, well, you shouldn't shuffle your hand into your library for no reason. I am curious to hear if more knowledgeable folks have a different take on this, though.

Aug. 31, 2017 05:02:54 PM

Chris Wendelboe
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

Originally posted by Jake Eakle:

I currently think it's fine to thoughtseize the library in that case, yeah. It does seem kind of extreme, but, well, you shouldn't shuffle your hand into your library for no reason. I am curious to hear if more knowledgeable folks have a different take on this, though.

Pretty sure this was a big deal when HCE first came out, as we suddenly had an actual fix to this situation (though, ironically, it's a deviation if the player doesn't want to fix and would rather have no hand).

I support the notion of HCE, and choosing 4 cards from the SB to make the hand.

Sept. 1, 2017 03:10:07 AM

Michel Degenhardt
Judge (Level 2 (Historical))

BeNeLux

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

I think I would probably rule this a deck problem, and fix accordingly.

Anya's hand has gotten mixed up with her sideboard. As a result, her deck now contains 56 cards, and her sideboard contains 19 cards.

None of the upgrades apply, so this is a warning.

As for a fix:
Originally posted by IPG3.5:

If the missing card(s) are with the sideboard and it isn’t the first game, choose the ones to be shuffled into the deck at random from all sideboard cards.
If for some reason Natalie was aware of (part of) the contents of Anya's hand (for example because of a resolved discard spell), I would deviate, and return those known cards to Anya's hand.

Though the HCE+thoughtseize the sideboard plan seems like a better fix, it also seems a pretty big stretch for a situation that is covered far better by a different infraction in the IPG.

Edited Michel Degenhardt (Sept. 1, 2017 03:16:25 AM)

Sept. 2, 2017 05:18:47 PM

Mike Combs
Judge (Level 2 (Historical))

USA - North

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

This isn't a Hidden Card Error. While it is an error that is dealing with cards that are hidden, it doesn't fit any of the descriptions of HCE. It does, however, fit being a Deck Problem.

To add to what Michel Degenhardt quoted, right after the quoted part is “…If the error is discovered during opening hands, instruct the player to mulligan. Otherwise, do not replace discovered erroneous cards in hands or other sets (such as a group of cards being scried or drawn).”

What I want to do is to try to figure out which cards they are. In the set of 19, it seems quite reasonable that it is either the top or the bottom 4 that were taken combined with the sideboard somehow. It also seems reasonable that a judge could talk to the player and figure out which 4 it is with no disruption to the game. We assume no cheating here, but in the moment at a GP it also seems like it would be really hard to do this to gain an advantage.
This fix doesn't seem to be supported by policy.

That being said, if I'm reading this correctly, policy tells us to randomly take 4 from the 19 and shuffle them into the deck and not put any cards into Anya's hand.

Sept. 2, 2017 10:14:49 PM

Andrew Keeler
Judge (Level 2 (Historical))

USA - Southeast

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

Originally posted by Mike Combs:

This isn't a Hidden Card Error. While it is an error that is dealing with cards that are hidden, it doesn't fit any of the descriptions of HCE. It does, however, fit being a Deck Problem.

Would you mind expanding on this reasoning? I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing here.

Edited Andrew Keeler (Sept. 2, 2017 10:15:29 PM)

Sept. 5, 2017 12:25:01 PM

Joe Klopchic
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (Historical))

Seattle, Washington, United States of America

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

Thanks everyone for all the great discussion this week. This one was quite good.

CoriAnn Theroux was the first of us to point out the HCE idea. We have cards going from a hidden set, Anya's Hand, to a hidden set, Anya's sideboard.

Lets look at the other requirements for HCE, as those were debated in the thread.

Originally posted by IPG 2.3 Definition, in part:

A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available information and does so without his or her opponent’s permission.

This is certainly true. We can't fix this with public information, and since its game 2, we can't even do it by consulting Anya's decklist.

Originally posted by IPG 2.3 Definition, in part:

This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both before and after the error.

Anya's sideboard and hand are only known to her, so this is also true.

Originally posted by IPG 2.3 Definition, in part:

This infraction does not apply to simple dexterity errors, such as when a card being pulled off the library sticks to another card and is seen or knocked off the library. The cards themselves must
be part of a distinct set intended by the player.

Anya didn't intend to put her hand into her sideboard, but this isn't a dexterity error either. Anya was intentionally handling both sets of cards, so this exception doesn't apply.

Originally posted by IPG 2.3 Additional Remedy, in part:

If a set affected by the error contains more cards than it is supposed to contain, the player reveals
the set of cards that contains the excess and his or her opponent chooses a number of previouslyunknown
cards sufficient to reduce the set to the correct size. These excess cards are returned to
the correct location.

This gives us the fix, if we choose to rule this as HCE. Several people in the thread pointed this out as the solution, and it is a pretty fair fix, all things considered.

Those things listed, I believe that this action falls under HCE.

Before ruling that, we should consider the other option that was brought up: Deck Problem.

Originally posted by IPG 3.5 Description:

The contents of a deck or sideboard do not match the decklist registered and the decklist represents what the player intended to play.

This is true in this situation. Anya's sideboard is now 19 cards and her deck is 56, so that doesn't match her decklist. However, if we decide that this is HCE, we have to figure out which infraction matches the root cause. The root cause here is the action of putting the extra cards into the sideboard, not the fact that there are extra cards in the sideboard. Given that this is both HCE and DP, HCE is the infraction we will assess, and the fix we will use.

Anya receives a Warning for Hidden Card Error. She put extra cards into her sideboard, and that action can't be fixed using public information. Natalie will look at the 19 cards that were in Anya's deck box and choose four to become Anya's hand.

As always, if you want to continue discussion of this scenario, feel free to open a thread in the Competitive REL forum.

Sept. 6, 2017 09:08:49 AM

Riki Hayashi
Judge (Level 3 (Historical)), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

USA - Midatlantic

Look Ma, No Hand! - GOLD

Originally posted by Gediminas Usevičius:

However, giving AP Warning for slow play due to taking excessive time to find token and letting her know that if she is not able to find her hand with 100% certainty, she will be issued second Slow Play, which will be upgraded to GL. Obviously, she won't be able to do so, and yes, I understand, that this does not look fair for AP to give impossible task, but I don't see another way to progress the game.

It sounds like you are suggesting a second Slow Play after the judge has been called. Please don't ever do this. Once players have engaged a judge in helping to solve a problem, they are “off the clock” as they will be receiving a time extension for the time that we take in helping them out. Also, help the players out! Do not give them an “impossible task” as you call it. What you suggest would make this player less likely to call a judge in the future, an outcome we would like to avoid.