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Competitive REL » Post: Turning cards in library sideways

Turning cards in library sideways

Sept. 15, 2017 07:50:20 AM

Dirk Schlösser
Judge (Level 2)

German-speaking countries

Turning cards in library sideways

Hi,

is it allowed to turn cards from my library, I've legally seen, sideways? For example, I cast Approach of the second sun for the first time in the game. It resolves and I get 7 life and put in in my library at 7th from the top. can I turn the top 7 cards of my library sideways, so that I know when the Approach is on top?

Sept. 15, 2017 07:56:54 AM

Mark Mc Govern
Judge (Level 2), TLC

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Turning cards in library sideways

After a quick glance of the Comp rules, it describes the library as a
single face down pile - no mention that they all must be oriented exactly
the same.

Practically, both players have the knowledge that the card is 7th. Then 6th
(after 1 card is drawn) etc etc. So neither player is gaining advantage
they otherwise wouldn't have.

To me it's akin to leaving a marker on top of your library to remind you of
an upkeep trigger. Seems perfectly fine.

Sept. 15, 2017 09:33:51 AM

Nathaniel Bass
Judge (Level 2)

USA - Southeast

Turning cards in library sideways

This feels no different than having a marked card in your library. I would not allow.

Sept. 15, 2017 09:46:23 AM

Mark Mc Govern
Judge (Level 2), TLC

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Turning cards in library sideways

Originally posted by Nathaniel Bass:

This feels no different than having a marked card in your library. I would not allow.
How so? The Marked Cards infraction is intended for actual marks on cards/sleeves which make them different to the rest of the deck, no matter how much you might shuffle.

Sept. 15, 2017 09:56:33 AM

Marco Rivera
Judge (Level 2)

Hispanic America - North

Turning cards in library sideways

I think i wouldn't manager this as marked cards, but allowing this wouldn't arise some dexterity issues?

Flipping the seven cards over while drawing
Flipping them when touching them while sending a Card to the gy

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________________________________
From: Mark Mc Govern <forum-38305-582f@apps.magicjudges.org>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:47:48 AM
To: bladewing13@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Turning cards in library sideways (Competitive REL)


Nathaniel Bass
This feels no different than having a marked card in your library. I would not allow.
How so? The Marked Cards infraction is intended for actual marks on cards/sleeves which make them different to the rest of the deck, no matter how much you might shuffle.

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Sept. 15, 2017 10:20:41 AM

Milan Majerčík
Judge (Level 2), Scorekeeper

Europe - Central

Turning cards in library sideways

Hi,

I would not allow this. Counting to 7 is a skill. :-)

It is similar to a situation when the player does their shuffling in a way where some known cards (for example lands) are oriented upside down, so players can tell by just looking at the card back / sleeve what is on top. TE-Marked Cards for me (or alternatively Cheating).

Sept. 15, 2017 10:27:40 AM

Dirk Schlösser
Judge (Level 2)

German-speaking countries

Turning cards in library sideways

Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:

It is similar to a situation when the player does their shuffling in a way where some known cards (for example lands) are oriented upside down, so players can tell by just looking at the card back / sleeve what is on top. TE-Marked Cards for me (or alternatively Cheating).

I don't see the similarity here. There is no shuffling and both players know the identity and the position of the card. Why is this Cheating? I see no advantage in it, besides make counting easyier for you AND your opponent.

Edited Dirk Schlösser (Sept. 15, 2017 10:27:59 AM)

Sept. 15, 2017 11:56:27 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Turning cards in library sideways

My initial reaction was “No!!!”, but as noted by Mark, the rules don't expressly forbid this. Yes, you can argue that turning some sideways isn't exactly a single, face-down pile, but that's pushing the edges way too far, in my view.

Think of the number of times you've seen a player who has to reveal the top card of their library (or gets something “bounced” to the top of the library), and just leaves that card face up on top of the library. Technically, that's not a single, face-down pile - but it's not causing any damage to the integrity of that game.

If the opponent asks the player to “fix” their library (i.e., not have those top 7 cards rotated, or even not have the revealed card remain face up), I'd agree and instruct the player to cooperate. If the opponent is fine with it, leave it be.

d:^D

Sept. 27, 2017 06:06:46 PM

Alexandros Chapin
Judge (Uncertified), Tournament Organizer

USA - Northeast

Turning cards in library sideways

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

The Marked Cards infraction is intended for actual marks on cards/sleeves which make them different to the rest of the deck

The marked cards section of the MTR isn't actually limited to *physical marks* on card/sleeves, though. The card's orientation makes it“possible to identify the card without seeing its face.” That said, I think the strongest argument against this being qualified as a marked card is merely that the card/sleeve itself isn't what makes the card identifiable. This feels like one of those situations that just isn't adequately covered and falls to the judge's discretion. I wouldn't go out of my way to ask players not to do this.

Edited Alexandros Chapin (Sept. 27, 2017 06:08:29 PM)

Oct. 13, 2017 06:44:44 AM

Chris Lansdell
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

Canada

Turning cards in library sideways

From the IPG:
“Cards or sleeves in a player's deck have inconsistencies on them that might allow them to be differentiated from each other while in the library. This includes scuff marks, nail marks, discoloration, bent corners and curving from foils.”

Turning a card sideways would definitely qualify as an inconsistency, just as turning it upside down (not face up) in the library is enough to earn a Marked Cards penalty. That said, I don't recall ever issuing a penalty for a single upside down card in the library (though if it were a key card in the matchup I would seriously consider it), and this is more for the convenience of both players than any attempt to gain an advantage. As long as the opponent is OK, I'm OK.