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Competitive REL » Post: Number of spells casted during the turn

Number of spells casted during the turn

Nov. 6, 2017 10:03:43 AM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Number of spells casted during the turn

Hi everyone!

Andrea is playing against Nicola in a Competitive Legacy Tournament.
Andrea casts a Tendrils of Agony, pointing out its trigger ability.
Nicola then asks: “How many spells did you cast this turn?”.

Has Andrea to answer to this question completely and with no omissions? Or can he say “You can count them on your own”?
In short: what kind of information is this one?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Edited Jacopo Strati (Nov. 6, 2017 10:04:11 AM)

Nov. 6, 2017 10:20:32 AM

Emilien Wild
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Grand Prix Head Judge

BeNeLux

Number of spells casted during the turn

While Andrea has to provide complete and honest information about the spells which has been played this turn that still affects the game state, he doesn't have to make the math for Nicola nor volunteer any non-requested information.

If your opponent is comboing off during a turn, pay attention to what is happening and takes notes, you can't unload your responsibilities on him or her.

- Emilien

Nov. 6, 2017 10:50:43 AM

Mark Mc Govern
Judge (Level 2), TLC

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Number of spells casted during the turn

Surely “Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state” fits the bill? Number of spells cast this turn seems like a pretty pertinent detail of game actions when a storm spell is being cast.

Or are we saying similar things Emilien? Are you saying that AP has to list off all the spells cast (which implicitly helps with counting), but AP doesn’t have to say “I’ve cast 9 spells”?

Nov. 6, 2017 01:41:33 PM

Emilien Wild
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Grand Prix Head Judge

BeNeLux

Number of spells casted during the turn

My understanding our policy is that “Did you play this Ponder this turn?” is an answer your opponent has to answer truthfully and completely, but “Please list all the spells you played this turn” or “How many spells did you play this turn?” are not.

Not much because it's something we want players to bluff about, but because we don't want players to stop paying attention, then suddenly ask a full turn summary, and know that it's their opponent's responsibility to provide a 100% accurate answer or get a penalty otherwise. The policy is here to avoid players making stuff unclear on purpose, not to make your opponent do all the mental work for you.
If you don't like the answers your opponent is providing you, ask better questions.

- Emilien

Nov. 6, 2017 08:56:18 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Number of spells casted during the turn

'O'fficial confirmation: Emilien is correct. Other than a few specific things - number and type of counter, e.g. - that are listed in the Player Communication Policy as Free information, counting things is usually Derived.

“How many spells have you cast?” –> Derived, don't have to answer;
“Did you cast A, B, C, and D this turn?” –> Free, you have to answer (but if they forgot about E, you don't have to volunteer that info).

d:^D

Nov. 6, 2017 09:16:13 PM

Jake Eakle
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Number of spells casted during the turn

How about “What was the first spell you cast this turn?”

And, assuming they have to answer that, is there anything wrong with asking n times “What was the nth spell you cast this turn?” until the answer is “I didn't cast n spells this turn.”?

It seems like this is allowed and alleviates the burden of paying attention during your opponent's turn, despite Emilien's claim that “we don't want players to stop paying attention, then suddenly ask a full turn summary.”

If there's an objection that “What was the third spell you cast this turn?” is implicitly asking them to count something, which is derived, then you can dodge that too by identifying the first spell somehow and then asking “What was the next spell you cast after <spell>”? repeatedly.

My understanding was that policy is generally crafted to avoid the creation of specific magical phrases that allow players to do things they otherwise couldn't, but trying to make it harder to make your opponent give a full turn summary when you can do so anyway by asking without numbers seems like it crosses this line.

Nov. 6, 2017 09:32:27 PM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Number of spells casted during the turn

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

O'fficial confirmation: Emilien is correct. Other than a few specific things - number and type of counter, e.g. - that are listed in the Player Communication Policy as Free information, counting things is usually Derived.

“How many spells have you cast?” –> Derived, don't have to answer;
“Did you cast A, B, C, and D this turn?” –> Free, you have to answer (but if they forgot about E, you don't have to volunteer that info).

d:^D

Thanks Scott for the ‘O’ answer. :)

Nov. 6, 2017 09:59:22 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Number of spells casted during the turn

Originally posted by Jake Eakle:

How about “What was the first spell you cast this turn?”
If I were playing, I would answer that with “figure it out”, and I'd be very disappointed in a judge that rules that I have to answer more precisely.

d:^D

Nov. 6, 2017 10:16:41 PM

Joaquín Pérez
Judge (Level 2)

Iberia

Number of spells casted during the turn

(grabs opponent's graveyard)

int stormCount = 0;
for (Card c: oppGraveyard) {
if (answer(“Did you cast this” + c.getCardName() + “this turn?”).Equals(“Yes”)) stormCount++;
}

If the opponent is obliged to answer truthfully to the question of has been this spell cast this turn, any real player would be able to count Storm…

Edited Joaquín Pérez (Nov. 6, 2017 10:18:10 PM)

Nov. 6, 2017 10:44:51 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Number of spells casted during the turn

Joaquin is correct - and yet, that player disappoints me, because they should know the answer to most of those questions. To rephrase what Emilien said, paying attention is a valuable skill in Magic; not doing so isn't something that the rules should encourage or reward.

Granted, one or two of those questions might be legitimate - “I honestly don't remember, did you play THIS and THIS, or was that last turn?” - but really, players should pay attention. (Exception: when opponent is durdling their way through the “Eggs” combo, you're expected to take a short nap … or just concede, maybe?)

d:^D

Nov. 7, 2017 08:47:27 AM

Francesco Scialpi
Judge (Level 2)

Italy and Malta

Number of spells casted during the turn

A bit of angle-shooting:

NAP: “how many spells have you cast this turn?”
AP: "I cast this, and then i copied it with Pyromancer Ascension
NAP: ”So, two spells“

Is AP obliged to correct NAP and tell something like ”Only one, the copy isn't cast"?

Nov. 7, 2017 10:04:49 AM

Emilien Wild
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Grand Prix Head Judge

BeNeLux

Number of spells casted during the turn

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

A bit of angle-shooting:
Please, don't try to angle shoot. Our policies aren't comprehensive, you will always be able to push them more and more into corner cases that will become harder and harder to get a definitive answer, and will more and more devolve into “it depends”.

If you're unclear about our policies and their philosophy, and reading the answers you've been getting and thinking about them won't solve your issues, ask questions about that, eventually backed up by realistic examples in which they would apply.

But if you're just trying to poke holes into a one page section destined to police all communication that could happen in a 20 000 cards game played in over 70 languages, please keep it off the list, because it's neither useful not, to be honest, that much of a feat.

- Emilien

Nov. 7, 2017 04:41:07 PM

Andrew Keeler
Judge (Level 2)

USA - Southeast

Number of spells casted during the turn

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

Is AP obliged to correct NAP and tell something like ”Only one, the copy isn't cast"?

No, because AP could say nothing. AP can't confirm that incorrect count, but doesn't need to help their opponent correctly determine that derived information.