Originally posted by Sashi Kumar Balakrishnan:

I feel the real question is did the player forget his end of turn trigger? I've never had a player use the term “go” to pass till the end of turn. At all times it has been to indicate that it's the opponents turn. I know policy says otherwise.

I agree that the official meaning of the ‘go’ shortcut is a bit awkward. I can't imagine many people use it the way it's officially written. I would love to hear more from veteran judges how players use ‘go’ usually.

It seems apparent that Player A knows of the transformation trigger. However, did Player A take a look at his card when he was about to announce the transformation trigger, then realise that (he might have missed) Howlpack Alpha's trigger (that) happens at the end of his turn, then made those trigger statements?

Originally posted by Toby Hazes:

I agree that the official meaning of the ‘go’ shortcut is a bit awkward. I can't imagine many people use it the way it's officially written. I would love to hear more from veteran judges how players use ‘go’ usually.

I would disagree and say that this is exactly how it is used in practice, although it's quote possible that many players don't even realize this. What do you believe players mean when they say “go”?
In my experience, when a player says “go” and their opponent wants to do something, their is no question that he can do that, and there's (usually) no argument that it happens in the end-of-turn step, whether or not the opponent explicitly says so. This is true both at PTQ and FNM level.

Originally posted by Sebastian Reinfeldt:

I would disagree and say that this is exactly how it is used in practice, although it's quote possible that many players don't even realize this. What do you believe players mean when they say “go”?

I don't think I've ever seen “Go” used in the particular context provided in this scenario. Usually people say “Go” to indicate they are passing priority until their opponent has priority in their end step and there is nothing on the stack. If a player has end-of-turn triggers, and just says “Go”, I think it is likely they have forgotten it (even if, per policy, they haven't yet “missed” it).

I slightly agree with Vincent's point. From personal experience, the
experienced players will say something like "Go to end step.
Wolf trigger. Go.“, the noob players will approach it more awkwardly,
perhaps like ”Passmyturnandgetawolf."

As for th'OP, I feel it depends on how quickly the opponent untapped and
went to draw. If Player A remembered his trigger, he should have been
waiting to mention it as soon as th'opponent untapped. This really looks
like he only realized after remembering the transform trigger.


2013/5/14 Vincent Roscioli <forum-4180-162a@apps.magicjudges.org>

A lot of interesting comments on this thread - almost like an “accidental Knowledge Pool!”

The L4+ list was all abuzz with a very similar discussion, in April - only the card that inspired it was Obzedat, Ghost Council, not Mayor/Howlpack.

Our conclusion was that the “Go” shortcut should not only mean “passing priority until an opponent has priority in the end step”, but also “with an empty stack”. If I say “Go” with Obzedat or Howlpack on the battlefield, it doesn't matter if you take an action in my end step or just start your turn - I've implicitly missed that trigger. The burden is on me to say something more like “Go” as I reach to Exile Obzedat, or “Go, I get a Wolf”; if I've established that pattern of behavior, then simply reaching for the token should make it clear that I've remembered.

As a sneak preview of Magic Judge Monthly, my new blog has a summary of the L4+ discussions for April.

That would be a change I'm very happy with =)
Similar problems ensue with Sire of Insanity

Originally posted by Sebastian Reinfeldt:

Toby Hazes
I agree that the official meaning of the ‘go’ shortcut is a bit awkward. I can't imagine many people use it the way it's officially written. I would love to hear more from veteran judges how players use ‘go’ usually.

I would disagree and say that this is exactly how it is used in practice, although it's quote possible that many players don't even realize this. What do you believe players mean when they say “go”?
In my experience, when a player says “go” and their opponent wants to do something, their is no question that he can do that, and there's (usually) no argument that it happens in the end-of-turn step, whether or not the opponent explicitly says so. This is true both at PTQ and FNM level.

Oh yes I quite agree that if the opponent does something in response to ‘go’, that's meant to be done in the end step. What I'm referring to is the active player saying ‘go’ while still having a trigger on the stack in the end step waiting to resolve.

One question for extend scenario a little:

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Our conclusion was that the “Go” shortcut should not only mean “passing priority until an opponent has priority in the end step”, but also “with an empty stack”.

Should this work as well with “combat” shortcut?
For example: if I say “combat”, have I already missed my Angelic Skirmisher trigger, and can't choose anything?

Thanks Scott, and everyone else for your input on this thread…

It seems like I am a magnet for these kinds of discussions, and that if you know me personally I love discussing policy.

That said, I think the change would be great to the shortcut policy… but most of all - why don't we just use common sense here?

Common sense is variable. Policy exists precisely so that judges don't just
do whatever we feel is “right.”

My interpretation of policy and philosophy on this matter is almost exactly
Casey Brefka's, which is contrary to the bulk of the replies on this thread.

That seems like a pretty clear illustration of why we try not to rely on
common sense.

I'm with Joshua and Casey on this one. No wolf token. It looks like a clear case of forgetting his trigger and trying to get it back. Since it was mentioned that he knew that by saying go, the opponent would begin his turn.
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Originally posted by Adam Kolipiński:

Should this work as well with “combat” shortcut?
For example: if I say “combat”, have I already missed my Angelic Skirmisher trigger, and can't choose anything?

This isn't nearly as neat & clean as “Go” - because we all know you ARE going to do some stuff as soon as I agree we can go to the Combat Phase.

The reason we had to add “Combat?” (and similar) to the Shortcuts was to prevent Ball Lightning shenanigans (yes, this one goes way back to the days of Icy Manipulator in Standard). Way back when, players who knew an opponent was going to respond with “tap your dude(s)”, would trick them by saying “Combat?”, getting things tapped, then saying “OK, since you responded, I'll cast Ball Lightning and swing for 6!”

Extending the “with an empty stack” to the “Combat?” shortcut seems a bit more problematic; I think, overall, it could work - Angelic Skirmisher is an odd one, after all - and I'd still encourage players to say something more like “Combat, and I'll choose First Strike” or similar. Clarity always trumps obfuscation!

No promises on getting that added to written policy, however.

Originally posted by Sashi Kumar Balakrishnan:

Since it was mentioned that he knew that by saying go, the opponent would begin his turn.

It was mentioned as follows: “On investigation, it is found that opponent knows go means “it is your opponents turn.” ”.
It wasn't completely clear if “opponent” here refers to Alpha's controller or to the player whose turn just started. I understood that statement as if it refers to the one whose turn started (who assumed Alpha's controller has missed his trigger and therefore proceeded to untap/draw).
However, if it's the Alpha's controller's case, as you say, then trigger is clearly missed.

as was probably obvious - I lost track of the question while watching baseball and was talking about huntmaster :-\

Now that I'm actually discussing Mayor, saying “go” definitely voids the wolf trigger, for the noted reason that you're willing to advance the turn past the point where the trigger would fire. if the opponent stops the turn during main phase for some reason (Alchemist's Refuge -> Sire of Insanity), you could still get the wolf trigger once the turn actually advanced to the end step. My original answer still applies to the flip.

While this is too long of a time span to apply OoOS, player A could try to establish a shortcut that “go” means applying all the triggers when the opponent untaps and draws. I doubt many opponents would go for that… the best you could hope for is to agree that “go” really means “… and I'll get my wolf token while you decide whether to do anything in the end step” and even that is better handled by just saying “wolf, go” and being done with it

Originally posted by Tom Wyliehart:

Now that I'm actually discussing Mayor, saying “go” definitely voids the wolf trigger, for the noted reason that you're willing to advance the turn past the point where the trigger would fire. if the opponent stops the turn during main phase for some reason (Alchemist's Refuge -> Sire of Insanity), you could still get the wolf trigger once the turn actually advanced to the end step. My original answer still applies to the flip.

You don't need to acknowledge the wolf trigger when it fires, only when it resolves. And that can still happen (currently) after saying “go”. Hopefully in the future it can't.