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Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
March 23, 2019 03:44:36 PM [Original Post]
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Uncertified)
- Barriere, Canada
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Cynthia reveals Chancellor of the Annex from their opening hand. On Dave's first turn he plays an Island and passes the turn. On Cynthia's first turn she casts Faithless Looting. Dave casts Daze returning the Island to his hand, saying “float a blue”. Both players put their spells into the graveyard and Cynthia passes the turn, at which point Dave tries to cast Brainstorm with the floating blue. Cynthia says that the blue was spent to pay for the Chancellor trigger, while Dave claims the trigger was missed since Cynthia never said anything about it.
The MTR and the IPG both have lines that would seem to say that Dave is correct and the trigger was missed.
Do these lines apply here? Or are those meant for different situations and we should fall back on the philosophy of “Triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated, and the impact on the game state may not be immediately apparent.”, thus ruling with Cynthia that the trigger resolved and was paid for?
Official answer please.
The MTR and the IPG both have lines that would seem to say that Dave is correct and the trigger was missed.
MTR 4.2
During the resolution of one of their spells or abilities, a player may not assume their opponent has taken a shortcut. They must seek confirmation that a choice with no visible impact was taken.
IPG 2.1
Even if an opponent is involved in the announcement or resolution of the ability, the controller is still responsible for ensuring the opponents make the appropriate choices and take the appropriate actions.
Do these lines apply here? Or are those meant for different situations and we should fall back on the philosophy of “Triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated, and the impact on the game state may not be immediately apparent.”, thus ruling with Cynthia that the trigger resolved and was paid for?
Official answer please.
Edited Scott Marshall (March 23, 2019 03:52:37 PM)
March 23, 2019 06:43:07 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Northwest
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
As I recall, cards like Rhystic Study and Frost Titan influenced the quotes you included, esp. that phrasing in the IPG. What we wanted was to avoid the “gotcha” that could be achieved by remaining silent in hopes that Study would let you draw, or Titan would protect itself.
While your example is a bit different, the wording of policy confirms that Cynthia failed in her obligation to both point out the Chancellor's trigger, and confirm that Dave was using the floating mana to pay. Instead, she assumed and the cost of that assumption is Dave gets to act as though she forgot her trigger; Dave's position (really, his assumption) is defensible, because it's Cynthia's burden to point out the trigger and have Dave choose whether or not to pay 1.
Or, short version: players who assume things usually don't like the outcome.
d:^D
While your example is a bit different, the wording of policy confirms that Cynthia failed in her obligation to both point out the Chancellor's trigger, and confirm that Dave was using the floating mana to pay. Instead, she assumed and the cost of that assumption is Dave gets to act as though she forgot her trigger; Dave's position (really, his assumption) is defensible, because it's Cynthia's burden to point out the trigger and have Dave choose whether or not to pay 1.
Or, short version: players who assume things usually don't like the outcome.
d:^D
March 23, 2019 09:47:16 PM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Uncertified)
- Barriere, Canada
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
(I agree with this answer, but to play devils' advocate:)
If we assume that the trigger has been missed, Dave should have been announcing his floating mana as the turn progressed. Can't we assume that by not doing so he's indicating that the mana is gone?
If we assume that the trigger has been missed, Dave should have been announcing his floating mana as the turn progressed. Can't we assume that by not doing so he's indicating that the mana is gone?
March 23, 2019 11:25:40 PM
- Paul Baranay
- Forum Moderator
-
- Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry)), Grand Prix Head Judge
- USA - Northeast
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
The OP isn't super clear on how Cynthia and Dave communicated, but I imagine it's something like this:
C: OK, end the turn.
D: Wait - Brainstorm.
C: Huh? I thought you used that for the Chancellor trigger. Judge!
And now we're firmly back in the scenario that Scott's answer addresses.
On the other hand, if the conversation is more like this:
C: OK, end the turn.
D: Sure…in the end step, Brainstorm.
C: With what mana???
Then sure, we can conclude that the floating mana is gone :)
C: OK, end the turn.
D: Wait - Brainstorm.
C: Huh? I thought you used that for the Chancellor trigger. Judge!
And now we're firmly back in the scenario that Scott's answer addresses.
On the other hand, if the conversation is more like this:
C: OK, end the turn.
D: Sure…in the end step, Brainstorm.
C: With what mana???
Then sure, we can conclude that the floating mana is gone :)
March 24, 2019 11:36:34 AM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Northwest
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Originally posted by Isaac King:
Dave should have been announcing his floating mana as the turn progressed. Can't we assume that by not doing so…
Originally posted by original post:I'd interpret that as Dave announcing the floating mana at the appropriate time; as Bearz noted, we aren't told about the rest of their communication, and that's correct - you can't float that mana into the end step. The only way Dave can cast Brainstorm with the floating blue is to do so in Cynthia's main phase, and the scenario implies that's what Dave's trying to do.
Dave casts Daze returning the Island to his hand, saying “float a blue”.
d:^D
March 24, 2019 11:47:14 AM
- Shawn Doherty
- Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))
- USA - Northeast
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
In order for the Daze to resolve, Dave must pass priority. The CR states that he must announce any mana in his pool when he passes priority (106.4b). By not doing so, I think we have a GRV. You can determine if the game can back up. If so, then you can determine if we are at a point where Cynthia can demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence.
Personally, I think that Dave is using unclear communication to take advantage of Cynthia.
Personally, I think that Dave is using unclear communication to take advantage of Cynthia.
March 24, 2019 12:02:49 PM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Doesnt he automatically pass priority after casting Daze because he's not saying anything to keep it?
Dave is waiting for Cynthia to point out the trigger, and Cynthia doesnt acknowledge it. Dave is not responsible for Cynthia's triggers. Calling a Judge when Dave is casting Brainstorm sounds for me like Cynthia realized her mistake and is trying to fix it(with the help of the judge).
Dave is waiting for Cynthia to point out the trigger, and Cynthia doesnt acknowledge it. Dave is not responsible for Cynthia's triggers. Calling a Judge when Dave is casting Brainstorm sounds for me like Cynthia realized her mistake and is trying to fix it(with the help of the judge).
Edited Johannes Wagner (March 24, 2019 12:09:29 PM)
March 25, 2019 05:20:28 AM
- Brook Gardner-Durbin
- Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))
- USA - Great Lakes
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Originally posted by Shawn Doherty:
In order for the Daze to resolve, Dave must pass priority. The CR states that he must announce any mana in his pool when he passes priority (106.4b). By not doing so, I think we have a GRV.
Are you saying that Dave saying “float a blue” before casting the Daze is not sufficient communication, and he should get a GRV for not saying “Float a blue, Daze, one blue floating” ?
If I'm understanding this correctly, I disagree here. In my opinion, if Dave returns his land to his hand, puts Daze on the field, and says “float a blue,” he's done everything we ask of him. It seems clear what he has done and what is in his mana pool. Yes, technically he has announced what mana is in his pool before casting his spell and the CR asks him to announce it after he casts the spell, but from the original post it sounds like this was all done in one breath - drawing any distinctions between “float one, Daze,” “Daze, one floating,” and “float one, Daze, one in my pool” strikes me as the kind of ~“gotcha!” Magic we are trying to move away from.
Edited Brook Gardner-Durbin (March 25, 2019 05:21:16 AM)
April 3, 2019 06:16:48 AM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
So, now we got contradicting answers, and some would like to have a clear answer…
Why does Cynthia get an advantage by being unclear(if I understood Shawn's answer correctly)?
Why does Cynthia get an advantage by being unclear(if I understood Shawn's answer correctly)?
April 3, 2019 12:10:46 PM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Northwest
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Originally posted by Johannes Wagner:Nope, there's still just one answer, and it's even been marked as the accepted answer. (Love that new feature, Apps Dev Team!!!)
now we got contradicting answers
d:^D
April 3, 2019 12:22:24 PM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Shawn's answer reads for me it is Dave's fault.
Your answer reads for me it is Cynthia's fault.
How is that not contradicting?
Your answer reads for me it is Cynthia's fault.
How is that not contradicting?
April 3, 2019 04:33:15 PM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Uncertified)
- Barriere, Canada
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Originally posted by Johannes Wagner:
Shawn's answer reads for me it is Dave's fault.
Your answer reads for me it is Cynthia's fault.
How is that not contradicting?
I wouldn't say that they “contradict”, I would say that Shawn disagrees with the ‘O’fficial answer provided by Scott.
April 3, 2019 05:39:18 PM
- Bartłomiej Wieszok
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program)), TLC, Tournament Organizer
- Europe - Central
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Shawn is not one of persons who can provide you with a official answer. On that topic - list of judges who can do that is rather unusual (two known L3s and two not so known L2). Could we have extra “flare” for them (under avatar)? A
April 4, 2019 05:59:37 AM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
contradict verb
if one statement, piece of evidence, story etc contradicts another, they disagree and cannot both be true
Isnt that exactly what happens here @Isaac?
Originally posted by Bartłomiej Wieszok:
Shawn is not one of persons who can provide you with a official answer. On that topic - list of judges who can do that is rather unusual (two known L3s and two not so known L2). Could we have extra “flare” for them (under avatar)? A
Yeah, you are right here. But usually in discussions we shouldnt treat one answer more right than the other. Shawn is also a long time judge, and I'm pretty sure some only read his answer and take that away from this thread.
April 4, 2019 08:33:29 AM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Northwest
Chancellor of the Annex and floating mana
Originally posted by Bartłomiej Wieszok:You'll notice that a handful of judges have “Forum Moderator” listed, along with any other info. These are the people who are normally authorized to provide moderation in these forums. There are additional ‘O’fficial sources, but it's unusual for them to use that: Kevin Desprez, as lead for GP Head Judges; Toby Elliott, as lead of the Policy team; any of the PCs; anyone from Wizards. Normally, they work with me or the other Mods, and I'll post an ‘O’, but exceptions can happen.
Could we have extra “flare” for them (under avatar)? A
Note also that all of that is outlined in the Forum Protocol.
d:^D
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