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"Altered" Force of Will
June 22, 2019 04:50:29 AM [Original Post]
- Elaine Cao
-
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry)), Scorekeeper
- Canada
"Altered" Force of Will
So this has been making the rounds recently:
https://mobile.twitter.com/nicknprince/status/1142145102858485760
Essentially the player has sharpied out the art on the card because of a political disagreement with the artist. I personally still think that the cards are still playable, but I want to hear what others would do if they had a player present this to them as the head judge. The player in the video probably wouldn't be too upset if a judge made him buy a new set of Force of Will, but most players would be less willing to eat the cost.
Follow up questions:
What if the art box was completely blacked out?
What if the box was blacked out, and some non-play-advice text was written on it in a different color (e.g. “trans rights”)
What if the art was not blacked out but some text was written on it?
Obviously I have a personal and emotional investment in this topic, but I want to hear what others think.
Edit: To clarify, I understand that the policy says that the art must not be obscured, but it's also up to the head judge, so…
https://mobile.twitter.com/nicknprince/status/1142145102858485760
Essentially the player has sharpied out the art on the card because of a political disagreement with the artist. I personally still think that the cards are still playable, but I want to hear what others would do if they had a player present this to them as the head judge. The player in the video probably wouldn't be too upset if a judge made him buy a new set of Force of Will, but most players would be less willing to eat the cost.
Follow up questions:
What if the art box was completely blacked out?
What if the box was blacked out, and some non-play-advice text was written on it in a different color (e.g. “trans rights”)
What if the art was not blacked out but some text was written on it?
Obviously I have a personal and emotional investment in this topic, but I want to hear what others think.
Edit: To clarify, I understand that the policy says that the art must not be obscured, but it's also up to the head judge, so…
Edited Elaine Cao (June 22, 2019 04:58:02 AM)
June 22, 2019 06:52:27 AM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Damien Berry
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- Australia and New Zealand
"Altered" Force of Will
While the MTR states that the Head Judge of any event has the final say on card legality, they still have a responsibility to follow the guidelines set out by policy. I don't believe that giving the HJ the final say enables them to override the policy on authorised cards, but rather gives them “wiggle-room” for disallowing cards they feel are unacceptable, even if they had been given the “okay” at yesterday's event.
The artwork is unrecognisable as a result of the modifications, so does not meet the criteria for a tournament-legal Magic: The Gathering card.
The artwork is unrecognisable as a result of the modifications, so does not meet the criteria for a tournament-legal Magic: The Gathering card.
June 22, 2019 06:35:23 AM
- Robert Hinrichsen
- Judge (Level 3 (Judge Foundry))
- Canada
"Altered" Force of Will
Personally I would not allow alterations of this type. The governing criteria in the MTR is that alterations may not render the card art unrecognizable (i.e. a person must reasonably be able to identify the card by art alone). Blacking out the art to this degree in my view does not meet the criterion, as the card is no longer easily recognizable by its art at a glance.
In fact I had to rule on exactly this question a few years ago when a player presented me with an Arid Mesa with art completely blacked out, and I asked him to please find an unaltered version to replace it.
I do not think the political expression aspect of this question is particularly relevant. Writing non-obscene text on card (such as your example of “trans rights”) is perfectly fine, so long as it is done in a way that does not obscure the art so much that it becomes unrecognizable.
In fact I had to rule on exactly this question a few years ago when a player presented me with an Arid Mesa with art completely blacked out, and I asked him to please find an unaltered version to replace it.
I do not think the political expression aspect of this question is particularly relevant. Writing non-obscene text on card (such as your example of “trans rights”) is perfectly fine, so long as it is done in a way that does not obscure the art so much that it becomes unrecognizable.
June 22, 2019 06:44:31 AM
- Tom Wood
- Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy))
- Australia and New Zealand
"Altered" Force of Will
I would echo what Robert has said - I wouldn't allow this. Regardless of my own personal beliefs and whether or not I agree with Gerry's position, there is no exception in the MTR for political expression and I don't think there's any reason to deviate from written policy in this case.
Regardless of what their opinion is of the artist, they still have a responsibility to follow the tournament rules.
Regardless of what their opinion is of the artist, they still have a responsibility to follow the tournament rules.
Edited Tom Wood (June 22, 2019 06:45:10 AM)
June 22, 2019 06:52:27 AM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Damien Berry
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- Australia and New Zealand
"Altered" Force of Will
While the MTR states that the Head Judge of any event has the final say on card legality, they still have a responsibility to follow the guidelines set out by policy. I don't believe that giving the HJ the final say enables them to override the policy on authorised cards, but rather gives them “wiggle-room” for disallowing cards they feel are unacceptable, even if they had been given the “okay” at yesterday's event.
The artwork is unrecognisable as a result of the modifications, so does not meet the criteria for a tournament-legal Magic: The Gathering card.
The artwork is unrecognisable as a result of the modifications, so does not meet the criteria for a tournament-legal Magic: The Gathering card.
June 22, 2019 10:31:48 AM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
"Altered" Force of Will
As pointed out in other threads about alterations the MTR doesnt give a Headjudge a Get out of Jail-card for everything(tho some headjudges believe it is one….)-
These cards can't be allowed, as the art isnt recognizable at all anymore.
These cards can't be allowed, as the art isnt recognizable at all anymore.
Edited Johannes Wagner (June 22, 2019 10:32:20 AM)
June 22, 2019 02:53:01 PM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Uncertified)
- Barriere, Canada
"Altered" Force of Will
I disagree with everyone saying that these are textbook not allowed- enough of the art is visible that I could easily see myself or another judge allowing them. It's certainly going to be a judgement call.
That said, the HJ of the MCQ mentioned in the video chose not to allow them.
That said, the HJ of the MCQ mentioned in the video chose not to allow them.
June 24, 2019 07:28:21 AM
- Riki Hayashi
- Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer
- USA - Midatlantic
"Altered" Force of Will
One test that I've applied in the past is to cut the art square out of a basic land (or common) and place that frame over the card in question. I then hold up the card and ask someone who has not been part of the conversation to identify the card. This ensures that the identification isn't biased by traits that are not a part of the art of the card, like name, mana cost, type line, card frame color, etc. It's certainly possible that someone could still identify these cards from the visible portions on the edges as this artist has a very distinct art style and color palette. Heck, even if the art were completely blacked out, knowing the community discourse on this artist, one could reasonably guess that the card is Force of Will. However, that should not be used in a determination of whether the art is recognizable or not.
June 24, 2019 12:55:22 PM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
"Altered" Force of Will
Originally posted by Isaac King:
I disagree with everyone saying that these are textbook not allowed- enough of the art is visible that I could easily see myself or another judge allowing them. It's certainly going to be a judgement call.
If that amount of “artwork” is okay we can basically delete the lines about altered cards from the MTR.
June 26, 2019 11:00:44 AM
- Joseph Marcia
- Judge (Uncertified)
- USA - Northwest
"Altered" Force of Will
As an aside, what about altering the art to another version of Force of Will, given that to my understanding the largest reason behind is the current disagreement with the artist?
If, for example, one altered their forces to use the Matt Stewart art (Vintage Masters) or the Jaime Jones art (Amonkhet Invocation), would that card be legal? The art would be clearly recognizable as force of will, just not the same printing of force of will as it was originally. Last I checked, we don't care what printing of the card is being used as long as it doesn't confer some other advantage.
If, for example, one altered their forces to use the Matt Stewart art (Vintage Masters) or the Jaime Jones art (Amonkhet Invocation), would that card be legal? The art would be clearly recognizable as force of will, just not the same printing of force of will as it was originally. Last I checked, we don't care what printing of the card is being used as long as it doesn't confer some other advantage.
June 26, 2019 11:45:49 AM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
"Altered" Force of Will
It's not the original artwork of that printing so it would not be legal.
June 26, 2019 12:03:34 PM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Northwest
"Altered" Force of Will
Originally posted by Johannes Wagner:Can you provide quotes from policy to support this statement?
It's not the original artwork of that printing so it would not be legal.
d:^D
June 26, 2019 12:15:01 PM
- Shawn Doherty
- Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))
- USA - Northeast
"Altered" Force of Will
So the quote from MTR 3.3:
“Artistic modifications are acceptable in sanctioned tournaments, provided that the modifications do not make the card art unrecognizable, contain substantial strategic advice, or contain offensive images. ”
In this case, the card art is covered by a completely different image. Therefore, the card cannot be recognize by the card art if it is completely covered.
Shawn
“Artistic modifications are acceptable in sanctioned tournaments, provided that the modifications do not make the card art unrecognizable, contain substantial strategic advice, or contain offensive images. ”
In this case, the card art is covered by a completely different image. Therefore, the card cannot be recognize by the card art if it is completely covered.
Shawn
Originally posted by Scott Marshall:Originally posted by Johannes Wagner:Can you provide quotes from policy to support this statement?
It's not the original artwork of that printing so it would not be legal.
d:^D
June 26, 2019 10:53:50 PM
- Milan Majerčík
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper
- Europe - Central
"Altered" Force of Will
Originally posted by Shawn Doherty:
do not make the card art unrecognizable
Actually, the art is perfectly recognizable as a FoW art in Joseph's case.
The difference may be only in a different card frame etc (unless there is also a borderless alteration in place).
June 27, 2019 12:03:30 AM
- Emilien Wild
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 3 (International Judge Program)), Grand Prix Head Judge
- BeNeLux
"Altered" Force of Will
Keep in mind that while some judges love to talk about theoretical situations that will push the boundaries of our non-comprehensive policies, the education factor is very limited for most judges who will never encounter such an oddity, especially considering that such an art swap would also need to happen without making marked, for example thicker than an original.
If a player really, really don't want to see a specific art in their deck, for any reason, and still want to play that deck at a sanctionned event, they have a simple solution: don't play a card sporting that art. They might not like that solution, but that doesn't mean it's not the most appropriate one.
- Emilien
If a player really, really don't want to see a specific art in their deck, for any reason, and still want to play that deck at a sanctionned event, they have a simple solution: don't play a card sporting that art. They might not like that solution, but that doesn't mean it's not the most appropriate one.
- Emilien
June 27, 2019 12:32:56 AM
- Johannes Wagner
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- German-speaking countries
"Altered" Force of Will
Thanks Shawn for posting the relevant policy.
The “difference” is that the whole artwork got painted over and replaced by another artwork(although of the same card). Stuff at the border of the artwork isnt a good way to verify what card it is, because there is overlap with other cards. The part of the artwork that is used to recognize cards is the middle/center piece of the artwork, not 5% at the border.
As Emilien pointed out, players have the option to acquire another artwork for the card, so I wouldnt allow those “complete makeovers”. One thing that always comes up in these discussions(is the card genuine?) is also more difficult to verify.
Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:
Actually, the art is perfectly recognizable as a FoW art in Joseph's case.
The “difference” is that the whole artwork got painted over and replaced by another artwork(although of the same card). Stuff at the border of the artwork isnt a good way to verify what card it is, because there is overlap with other cards. The part of the artwork that is used to recognize cards is the middle/center piece of the artwork, not 5% at the border.
As Emilien pointed out, players have the option to acquire another artwork for the card, so I wouldnt allow those “complete makeovers”. One thing that always comes up in these discussions(is the card genuine?) is also more difficult to verify.
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