I came into this interesting connundrum during an FNM I was judging a couple weeks ago.

During game one of round two AP, the turn before, played a Geist of Saint Traft. Now on his next turn he attacks and tells the player take six un-blocked damage (nap had no blockers). So both players record the damage taken. Now during game TWO AP attacks with the Giest again only this time NAP does not record the damage taken as six but 2 because his opponent did not include the angel token in his attack. Two turns go by and when assessing life totals judge is called to make a call on a missed Geist trigger.

I told both players that more than a turn has passed and that I can not back up game state to that moment. That NAP does not lose the extra four life and that both must watch the triggers more carefully. Also I issue a warning to play more carefully.

My question is; did I issue this right? Also I found out later that NAP is a frequent competetive player and is aware of the triggers change. Was this a fraud issue after finding this out? My mentor and I both talked to NAP and explained to him that this was relaxed non competetive rel, that he is responsible for game state being maintained and helping teach other more uneducated players. Should I have issued a more serious infraction to NAP??

Both players are responsible for the triggers at Regular REL. If NAP knew
the trigger was being missed he needs a very stern talking too, possibly a
DQ for cheating. That is a serious issue and he can't cheat his opponent
out of damage.

We did have a stern talk with him. NAP ended up losing the match in the long run due to bad mana and lack of blockers. But still after that incident we both talked to him and reminded him in a stern tone that he must play more cautiously and respectfully. I might also mention that AP is a trouble player at my store and despite mine and other judges educational help he still actively causes game state problems with other players.

Edited Jedson Winter (Oct. 24, 2012 11:51:05 PM)

Do keep in mind that it's only cheating if the player is aware that what he's doing is illegal. If he honestly believes that he shouldn't have to point out his opponent's triggers at Regular REL (understandable confusion, to be honest), then a stern talk is OK, and now you know that he's aware of that.

That is basically what happened when we asked/ questioned the player. He stated that he did not realized that regular rel followed different rules. I know in regular rel both players are responsible for their triggers, was I correct in not backing up game state for the life loss/ damage that went un-recorded?

Basically any fix you apply at Regular REL with the intention of being fair and educating players is fine. If the players think your fix is fine, then it probably is. In the case that you can't get the players to agree on a fix, then you pick the one that seems more right to you.

The most important thing is to encourage players to communicate clearly, both for announcing triggers and for announcing life total changes. This will minimize problems in the future for these players, at least.

Don't worry too much about being “correct” at Regular. :)

Edited Josh Stansfield (Oct. 26, 2012 02:35:40 PM)

Carlos:

I'm going to pick out your statement, not because I'm picking on you, but I think this is a problem with the current Missed Trigger policy. In your post, you state “If he honestly believes that he shouldn't have to point out his opponent's triggers at Regular REL (*understandable confusion*, to be honest)…” .

I completely agree with the confusion the current policy creates. Most players in my local area do not understand the difference between Competitive and Regular REL. Also, they're unclear on whether or not they should point out their opponent's “may” triggers.

What can we do to eliminate this confusion? I think an addition to MTR section 4.4 that specifically states what is required of the players at Regular REL would help.

Steve, there is a document “Judging at Regular REL” that is specifically what it seems you would like to add :)

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Andre Diamant <
forum-1690@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> Steve, there is a document “Judging at Regular REL” that is specifically
> what it seems you would like to add :)
>
>
I'll also add that this wouldn't solve the issue. Most players don't read
the documents; they read an article about the rules changes, or hear it
from other players.

Andre, that document is for judges. The MTR is for players. I think that's the distinction Steve was trying to make. The players don't know because it isn't in a document they are expected to read. That said, I think most players at Regular haven't read either document, so education falls to the judge at those events anyway.

(Edit: Sarnath'd)

Edited Topher Hickman (Nov. 7, 2012 06:27:55 AM)

Ahh fair enough. Clearly I was mixing two thread responses in one.