Hello all,

So, unfortunatly at my local store, I've heard some words regarding a player (Adam for explaination's sake).

Players have been saying Adam has frequently been drafting incredible draft decks, to the point where there is suspicion of their legitimacy.

Adam has also been reportedly flat out cheating, drawing extra cards when unattentive opps arent looking, slightly misrepresenting things to his advantage and whatnot.

I have never seen Adam do these things, but reportedly this has been happening in fnm drafts, sometimes even in EDH games and even friendly cubes.

In the situation where you have word from trusted sources, but no strict evidence, would you simply chat with Adam aside from others? Would you hold off and watch him to catch him red handed? Or is 4+ reliable players' word good enough fr you to take action? I'm honestly new to having potential cheaters about, any suggestions would be helpful for figuring out what to do next.
(Slight edit: I honestly just find to-the-point titles a bit bland, but to not suggest a flawed methodology, I made the topic more clear, sorry for confusion)

Edited Gregory Titov (May 8, 2015 04:31:09 PM)

“Beyond a reasonable doubt” is not the standard we hold ourselves to for
disqualifications. If you have a good faith belief that this player is
engaging in these behaviors in an event, interview that player. If, after
that player, you still have that good faith belief, then that player should
be disqualified from that event.

If you require a court-related analogy, the US civil court requirement of
“a preponderance of evidence” is a good analogy. Testimony is evidence -
but remember that testimony is unreliable. Balance with your knowledge and
understanding of the situation and the facts at hand. Use Eric Shukan's
“Search for Collateral Truth” methodology to explore alternative
possibilities and determine their relative likelihood.

Bottom line: If I believe a player is cheating, I also believe I am
obligated to disqualify that player. If I do not have a firm belief, I
believe I am obligated to allow them to continue to play unless further
evidence crops up.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gregory Titov <
forum-18179-fac0@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> So, unfortunatly at my local store, I've heard some words regarding a
> player (Adam for explaination's sake).
>
> Players have been saying Adam has frequently been drafting incredible
> draft decks, to the point where there is suspicion of their legitimacy.
>
> Adam has also been reportedly flat out cheating, drawing extra cards when
> unattentive opps arent looking, slightly misrepresenting things to his
> advantage and whatnot.
>
> I have never seen Adam do these things, but reportedly this has been
> happening in fnm drafts, sometimes even in EDH games and even friendly
> cubes.
>
> In the situation where you have word from trusted sources, but no strict
> evidence, would you simply chat with Adam aside from others? Would you hold
> off and watch him to catch him red handed? Or is 4+ reliable players' word
> good enough fr you to take action? I'm honestly new to having potential
> cheaters about, any suggestions would be helpful for figuring out what to
> do next.
>
> ——————————————————————————–
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–
*-Eric Levine*

*Marketing & Event Manager*
*ChannelFireball.com <http://ChannelFireball.com>*


<http://www.grandprixvegas.com/>

I feel suspicions of cheating should always be investigated. This will, most of the times, provide proof of the player cheating, or will prove the suspicions are wrong. In either case, it should silence (most) rumours people might spread if things go unchecked.

The flatout cheating you describe should be, relatively speaking, easy to deal with. Investigate the situation and use your judgement on a case by case scenario whether it is cheating or not. Either way, it can never hurt to educate him.

In your case, you also mention Adam frequently drafts increadible decks. Have you considered doing a deck check? Double check whether the numbers are correct, have him reconstruct his draft (which card did he pick when, etcetera) as good as possible, then have the players to his left and right come in and confirm which cards they have passed to him, and which they certainly haven't. If necessary, you could pull other players in his draft pod in to further confirm where some of the cards might have come from.
Such a deck check will take time, though, so it might significantly slow down the tournament. However, if you feel it is necessary to provide a definitive answer on whether or not this player is cheating at that event, it might be worthwhile.

Edited Lars Leenen (May 8, 2015 05:28:39 PM)

I similar standard of proof is held in the UK Courts for Civil Matters
known as On the Balance of Probabilities. Personally I think as a judge
if you suspect cheating and investigations leads you to believe it is so
DQ them, you dont have to prove anything, and let the DQ Panel decide
whether they feel a banning is appropriate. Dont forget your actions
will at most mean the end of one tournament for the player, once you
have done that the matter is out of your hands. I dont mean to trivilise
a DQ just emphasis it is not the do all and end all of magic for that
player.

Graham

On 08/05/2015 22:26, Eric Levine wrote:

My greatest concern at this point is that what I have to work with is the stories of others from past events. I don't think DQing them for this fnm is right if they didn't cheat at this fnm. I may be wrong on that point, honestly, DQ stuff is fairly new to me and I'm a little scared of messing this up.

As for deck checking, with drafts being sticky to work out the numbers of, I'm starting to watch his games and take note of his rare numbers, saw he had 2 bomb rares from fate on friday, chatted with the person passing to him, confirmed that the rares were indeed passed to Adam.

CAN(/should) I do anything if the cheating happened in the past? I'm at a point where I've heard stories from enough reliable players at the store that I have no doubt about the validity of their stories.

Definitely do NOT DQ the player at THIS FNM for alledged cheating at a previous event. If you want to enter a post-event DQ for the previous event in which the behavior supposedly occurred, that's up to you. But you cannot DQ them at a new event for past behavior.

Of course, your TO might well decide to not allow the player into the venue for the current FNM based on last weeks information, but that's not a DQ situation.

Eric S.


My greatest concern at this point is that what I have to work with is the stories of others from past events. I don't think DQing them for this fnm is right if they didn't cheat at this fnm. I may be wrong on that point, honestly, DQ stuff is fairly new to me and I'm a little scared of messing this up.

While it's possible to DQ someone after a tournament has finished, you then need to have some evidence after the fact. Examples are a player boasting about pulling the cheat on facebook or something like that. The DQ is then entered to let the investigation commitee start an investigation into the players behavior. While the combined testimony is enough for you to take action, and have passed the treshhold to be a DQ, the investigation committee has a different treshhold for a ban.

There is, however, a different approach to this situation. If enough players have complained, the TO / shopowner can take action against the offending player, in the form of a shop ban. That requires a lot less red tape, and has a bigger impact than a warning letter after a few months from the Investigation committee from a DQ after the tournament ended.

If you (and the shopowner) are not ready for that step yet, there is a choice to be made. You can talk to the player, and tell him he will be watched, and his plays will be under scrutiny. That might prevent the cheating. You can also increase the surveillance around him, to try to catch him cheating. If he is indeed habitually adding cards to the draft, it should be possible to check his deck and what was passed to him. However, do make sure the testimonies you get from the players to his left and right are trustworthy. Also make sure the shopowner knows what is up: If you DQ for cheating, you want him to have your back.