Hello all.
MIPG 2.1. Game Play Error — Missed Trigger says:

A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or acknowledge the specific trigger before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly taking an action in the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.

On both sides of the colon have two parts separated by “or”.
Does “The controller must take the appropriate physical action” refer just to “A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state”? And does “acknowledge the specific trigger” refer just for “requires a choice upon resolution”?

Connected with this:
Adam casts and resolves Kitchen Finks and says “trigger”, then Norman casts and resolves Boros charm choosing to deal 4 damages to Adam. No player writes +2 on their life total notes. After this Adam says “your turn”, Norman untaps and now Adam realizes that they didn´t write +2.
Is this a missed trigger because Adam didn´t take the appropriate physical action or it is not a missed trigger because Adam acknowledges the specific trigger before passing priority to a next phase?

Thanks for your help.
Javier.

Considering :
A : A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state
B : A triggered ability that requires a choice upon resolution
C : The controller must take the appropriate physical action
D : The controller must acknowledge the specific trigger before taking any game actions

The way I understand it is :
If (A or B - we do not care which one) then you must (C or D - we do not care which one).
Either part on each side of the colon is applicable to either side of the other side of the colon.

In your example, the triggered ability is missed because of both reasons.
He missed it :
- because he did not take the appropriate physical action like wrtiing down the new life totals.
- because he did not acknowledge the specific trigger before taking any game actions such as saying “trigger” or “gain 2”
because saying “your turn”.

In the second case if he only says it but did not complete the resolution until its completion (like saying “gain 2” without updating the life totals), it is handled as a GRV as said in the IPG.

T_O

Sorry for the delay, but I'm (slowly!) catching up on lots of loose ends…

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

On both sides of the colon have two parts separated by “or”.
Does “The controller must take the appropriate physical action” refer just to “A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state”? And does “acknowledge the specific trigger” refer just for “requires a choice upon resolution”?

Nope, this syntax isn't meant to be that complex.

I'll try to simplify a bit; read that as “If A or B, then C or D”. So, if A is true, then either C or D must happen; if B is true, then either C or D must happen.

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

Is this a missed trigger because Adam didn´t take the appropriate physical action or it is not a missed trigger because Adam acknowledges the specific trigger before passing priority to a next phase?

This is a GRV, for failing to properly resolve a clearly acknowledged trigger.

Where it gets messy is if there's ambiguity about what trigger(s) are acknowledged, or if they're acknowledged. The way I'm reading your scenario, however, it's clear to everyone that Kitchen Finks' “gain 2 life” trigger has been acknowledged. If there were also a “Whenever a creature enters the battlefield…” trigger, just saying “triggers” and not doing anything related to resolving either or both of them, we'd go with Missed. (This is especially tricky, since “triggers” isn't clear - it could mean “this trigger fires” or “both triggers fire”.

Ain't English fun?! :p

d:^D

The Annotated IPG says “*Saying ‘Trigger’ is not sufficient. You need to
clearly indicate what the specific trigger is.*”

Just to clarify: Any time someone says “trigger” or “triggers” and there is
only one trigger that could have triggered, it is not a missed trigger,
correct?

2016-10-25 20:26 GMT-04:00 Scott Marshall <

That is my understanding Dominik, so long as there's only 1 thing a player could possibly be referring to when saying “trigger”, then simply saying “trigger” is sufficient action to acknowledge it. Otherwise, they need to be more specific.

Originally posted by Shae Rivard:

That is my understanding Dominik, so long as there's only 1 thing a player could possibly be referring to when saying “trigger”, then simply saying “trigger” is sufficient action to acknowledge it. Otherwise, they need to be more specific.

Whose responsibility is it to determine that there is only one trigger that could have triggered? What if one or both players are wrong, and they forgot a permanent with a triggered ability that was buried amongst a stack of lands?

As I understand it, the philosophy of this section of Missed Triggers is that the player responsible for the trigger must make it clear what is triggering. This doesn't necessarily require the player to explicitly state that a given trigger is on the stack, but it does mean that something about the announcement must be more specific than just saying “trigger.” For example, with finks, a player can acknowledge its trigger by saying “trigger” while pointing to the Finks; by proposing a shortcut of “finks and trigger it” while it's on the stack; or just by saying “go to 14?” and making the outcome of the trigger clear.

I don't think that it's consistent with policy to force players and judges to play a guessing game and determine that the word “trigger” must have referred to Finks by process of elimination. If the AP has given no indication as to what's triggering, do we want to force either the NAP or the Judge to look through every permanent on AP's board to determine whether anything else could possibly be triggering?

Edited Eli Meyer (Oct. 26, 2016 12:27:41 PM)

I think if we determine that both players thought “trigger” meant the Kitchen Finks' gain life ability and nothing else, that saying “Trigger” is sufficient. This isn't a game of gotcha, if in the minds of the players ‘Trigger’ means ‘gain 2 life’ then that's what it means.

I too am a little confused by Uncle Scott's answer. I was under the impression that the specific trigger had to be acknowledged in a way that made it clear what the trigger is, and that simply saying “trigger” was not sufficient.

Isaac, as I read his post. He seems to be saying that when it's not possibly ambiguous (when there is only one trigger possible) then it's unambiguous ('trigger' relates to that one and only one trigger).

We understand what Uncle Scott is saying. We're not confused because he's
contradicting himself. We're confused because he's contradicting previous
communications on missed triggers.

2016-10-29 10:01 GMT-04:00 Mark Mason <forum-29805-8a29@apps.magicjudges.org

Originally posted by Dominik Chłobowski:

We're confused because he's contradicting previous
communications on missed triggers.

uhhh… no, I'm not. I am confused as to why you believe that; I suspect that you're ignoring the original post, it's critical context for what I wrote.

d:^D

In my understanding of

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

Adam casts and resolves Kitchen Finks and says “trigger” {and fails to take the appropriate the physical action}

replied to by

Scott Marshall
This is a GRV, for failing to properly resolve a clearly acknowledged trigger.

directly contradicts previous information stated on these forums and in the Annotated IPG:

Annotated IPG
Saying ‘Trigger’ is not sufficient. You need to clearly indicate what the specific trigger is.

Edited Dominik Chłobowski (Oct. 29, 2016 12:22:14 PM)

So here's where Scott and the AIPG are both right.
(All the below pertains to the triggers that have a visible component)

You have to be clear what the specific trigger is.

In the case of playing a kitchen finks and saying “trigger” while putting it on the battlefield, is pretty specific.

Now compare the case to a warp world resolving and a bunch of stuff comin on the battlefield at the same time, and the AP just saying “trigger”, disassociated from any other visual or verbal clues.. In that case, nothing specific was indicated.

Or if I plays the kitchen finks and I have a bunch of things that trigger when a creature ETBs, and I just say “trigger” and don't take any physical action when the triggers should have resolved. In that case, it's not specific either.

In sort: Context matters.

-Bryan

Edited Bryan Prillaman (Oct. 29, 2016 01:02:29 PM)

Thank you.

2016-10-29 16:02 GMT-04:00 Bryan Prillaman <