Originally posted by Dustin De Leeuw:

You may want to educate the players on the rules (thanks, Robert!), but let's not be too heavy handed

Yep, that - including the thanks for Robert quoting the relevant rule. Given that, I don't think I'd even allow this at Regular REL - but I'd be gentle in my educational efforts with the player(s).

d:^D

In the specific case referenced at the start of the thread, I would definitely do some education on the player. Same thing would happen if the player would change a few cards of his deck between the roll and the deck presentation.


Technically, the act of presenting the deck to the opponent is the way to “lock” the deck configuration chosen by the player that will be used in the game (which is why we wait for that moment where both players presented to swoop in when doing deck checks at higher REL's). In a prerelease setting, that means that a player can modify his deck at anytime before presenting.

However, I have seen people in the past roll dice (or other random method) to determine who gets to choose play/draw first right before or while they are shuffling their decks before presenting. And yet I didn't intervene because I was under the assumption that players are honest and that when they are shuffling their decks, they intend to play it “as is” for the first game.

Was I wrong to not intervene in these cases ?

Originally posted by David Lachance-Poitras:

In the specific case referenced at the start of the thread, I would definitely do some education on the player. Same thing would happen if the player would change a few cards of his deck between the roll and the deck presentation.


Technically, the act of presenting the deck to the opponent is the way to “lock” the deck configuration chosen by the player that will be used in the game (which is why we wait for that moment where both players presented to swoop in when doing deck checks at higher REL's). In a prerelease setting, that means that a player can modify his deck at anytime before presenting.

However, I have seen people in the past roll dice (or other random method) to determine who gets to choose play/draw first right before or while they are shuffling their decks before presenting. And yet I didn't intervene because I was under the assumption that players are honest and that when they are shuffling their decks, they intend to play it “as is” for the first game.

Was I wrong to not intervene in these cases ?

In my estimation, if a player is already shuffling their deck, that is sufficient evidence as to “I intend to play this deck in this configuration” that I wouldn't intervene. (Note from a rules perspective this isn't sufficient evidence to make a hardline call, but for a judgment call it seems good enough for me).

Regarding the original question, we have already established that the question as asked is not legal. If faced with a player who wanted to do this, I think I would instruct them first that they should not do this, ask them to choose a deck, and ask the opponent if they would like to reroll play/draw (in that order). Subsequently, that player now has been instructed that this is not allowable, and if they try it again, treat further instances as Failure to Follow Instructions (which might involve getting the TO involved at Regular).

Originally posted by Robert Hinrichsen:

The answer to this question is actually laid out fairly explicitly in the Comprehensive Rules:

Originally posted by CR 103.1:

At the start of a game, each player shuffles his or her deck so that the cards are in a random
order. Each player may then shuffle or cut his or her opponents’ decks. The players’ decks become
their libraries.


Originally posted by CR 103.2:

After the decks have been shuffled, the players determine which one of them will choose who
takes the first turn. (…)


I don't think that leaves much room for debate.

Thank you Robert! I didn't even look in the CR for this as I figured it was an MTR thing. My hero!