Lost Legacy

Adrian casts Lost Legacy.
Nigel says “ok.
Adrian says ”Torrential Gearhulk“, an illegal choice.
Nigel doesn't notice at first and reveals his hand and then realizes the choice is illegal and says ”hey wait.. Judge!"

If I'm not mistaken, supported policy for this would be to either backup and have Adrian choose again or resolve it with the illegal choice.

There was a scenario somewhat similar with Show and Tell where it was ruled that an illegal choice was interpreted as choosing to put out nothing.

Is that interpretation usable here? ie. can it be resolved with no card chosen?
How much responsibility is on each player to verify the legality of the choice?

It seems Adrian can either gotcha Nigel or exile the illegal card he wants if Nigel isn't paying attention.
Inversely, if the Show and Tell ruling is usable, then Nigel can exploit the ruling by revealing his hand before claiming to notice the error.

Edited Todd Bussey (Jan. 30, 2017 10:05:32 AM)

OK, this one is kind of tricky, as policy doesn't really have specifics for this unique (but increasingly common!) situation. While I think it's fair to say this should decrease in frequency, as players become more familiar with Lost Legacy, it's still valid to consider what to do when things go south.

(Note: that's another way of saying "as odd as this might be, it's NOT a corner case.)
(Note also: Toby will make it a point to instruct players at the Pro Tour next weekend, in Dublin, which may also help spread awareness.)

Here's where we stand right now:

• Rewind, choosing a new name, if caught before anything - hand or library - was revealed
  
• Leave the game as is, exiling nothing, if caught while Lost Legacy was being resolved (i.e., hand and/or library has been revealed)
  
• Leave the game as is, exiling whatever had been exiled, if caught after any other game actions have been taken after resolving Lost Legacy incorrectly
  
• Consult the Head Judge if there is a situation where you want to deviate or that doesn't fit neatly into those categories
  
• Do be a little suspicious of a player - esp. the opponent - who just happens to realize during the resolution of the spell (Or: Investigate, then apply the above for honest mistakes.)
  

I want to thank all the L3s for their contributions to this conclusion; this has been a parallel discussion in that forum, actually for the last several days. A lot of good ideas and suggestions, but there really isn't a neat, clean answer in existing policy. For an understanding why the above bullet points fit into philosophy, if not policy, I'll just quote from the L3 discussion:

Originally posted by Toby Elliott:

We do have guiding philosophy on backups, and it's pretty clear that backing up here violates a lot of the principles of a good backup. It's not an option.

So we're left with sticking to the named card and what effect that has. I think the best precedent we have here is the Show and Tell/Planeswalker situation, where erroneously revealing a planeswalker to Show and Tell means it doesn't enter the battlefield. It's not a perfect match, for several reasons, but it's at least in the same ballpark. While we do have an expectation of the opponent being involved in the mistake, it's a subtle detail on a card they don't control, and asking for that level of attention is suboptimal.

In the end, with so little guidance available, I lean on “if all else fails, avoid rewarding the player who screwed up”.

TL;DR: until further notice, follow those five bullet points, and don't back up.

d:^D

Edited Scott Marshall (Jan. 31, 2017 03:56:24 PM)

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

OK, this one is kind of tricky, as policy doesn't really have specifics for this unique (but increasingly common!) situation. While I think it's fair to say this should decrease in frequency, as players become more familiar with Lost Legacy, it's still valid to consider what to do when things go south.

(Note: that's another way of saying "as odd as this might be, it's NOT a corner case.)
(Note also: Toby will make it a point to instruct players at the Pro Tour next weekend, in Dublin, which may also help spread awareness.)

Here's where we stand right now:

• Rewind, choosing a new name, if caught before anything - hand or library - was revealed
  
• Leave the game as is, exiling nothing, if caught while Lost Legacy was being resolved (i.e., hand and/or library has been revealed)
  
• Leave the game as is, exiling whatever had been exiled, if caught after any other game actions have been taken after resolving Lost Legacy incorrectly
  
• Consult the Head Judge if there is a situation where you want to deviate or that doesn't fit neatly into those categories
  
• Do be a little suspicious of a player - esp. the opponent - who just happens to realize during the resolution of the spell (Or: Investigate, then apply the above for honest mistakes.)
  

I want to thank all the L3s for their contributions to this conclusion; this has been a parallel discussion in that forum, actually for the last several days. A lot of good ideas and suggestions, but there really isn't a neat, clean answer in existing policy. For an understanding why the above bullet points fit into philosophy, if not policy, I'll just quote from the L3 discussion:

Originally posted by Toby Elliott:

We do have guiding philosophy on backups, and it's pretty clear that backing up here violates a lot of the principles of a good backup. It's not an option.

So we're left with sticking to the named card and what effect that has. I think the best precedent we have here is the Show and Tell/Planeswalker situation, where erroneously revealing a planeswalker to Show and Tell means it doesn't enter the battlefield. It's not a perfect match, for several reasons, but it's at least in the same ballpark. While we do have an expectation of the opponent being involved in the mistake, it's a subtle detail on a card they don't control, and asking for that level of attention is suboptimal.

In the end, with so little guidance available, I lean on “if all else fails, avoid rewarding the player who screwed up”.

TL;DR: until further notice, follow those five bullet points, and don't back up.

d:^D

You missed a case: What if Lost Legacy has finished resolving but no other game actions have been taken? Presumably we can rewind in this case?

I think not
If caught while resolving, we do nothing.
I don't see any reason for trying to rewind when we are past this point
(even if we are not yet at the next bullet)


2017-01-31 20:06 GMT-03:00 Lyle Waldman <

Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:

You missed a case: What if Lost Legacy has finished resolving but no other game actions have been taken? Presumably we can rewind in this case?

I think this fits into “a simple backup” - i.e., return the exiled card(s) to the zone they were in, shuffle the library if necessary, and carry on.

d:^D

Which sounds a lot like a partial backup. While I support doing it
(anything else sounds much worse) this doesn't fit into the specific
remedies and isn't a backup to when the mistake occurred.