Player A casts serum visions, draws a card and before scrying he plays a land and passes the turn. Right after saying he passed the turn he quickly says “oops i forgot the rest”, quickly picks two card from the top of the library and merge them with his hand.

During the players explanation it seemed like there were some communication problem on how was the exact sequencing. Player B said that his oponent didnt really tried to scry, that he simply added the cards to his hand after playing his land and being done with his turn. Player A was really confused and embarassed because the error was clear and said in his head he did tried to scry but his brain went bananas and he did this by mistake.

In my opinion there are two lines we can follow here. First we treat as if Player A chose to leave the scry at the top and then drew two cards by his own will. The other is to return the land to the player hand make Player B chose two cards and make him perform the scry with those two cards.

How should we fix this? What kind of investigation should i have done to make a better decision in fixing this?

There are two errors here:
the first is that player A didn't scry when he was instructed to.
The second is a HCE: in trying to fix his error, the player adds cards to his hand rather then scry.

For the first error, a tournament shortcut exists:
“A player who does not scry (or look at the top card of the library after taking a mulligan) when instructed to is assumed to have not looked and chosen to leave the cards in the same order.”

That leaves just the HCE, for which we apply the fix: Player A reveals his hand, Player B decides which two cards were drawn, those two cards are shuffled away (provided their location wasn't known through previous scries)

I think there's an argument to be made that the cards that will be selected by player B, were previously known cards. Especially since the fix for a missed scry involves leaving the cards on top of the library. My one change to Michel's answer is I would place the 2 cards on top of the library instead of shuffling them in.

Originally I thought so too, but after reading the section on HCE again I don't think so. It talks about “unless the owner previously knew the identity of the card/cards illegally moved”. The owner didn't know the identity of the cards before drawing them, as they never actually performed the scry. If you could time travel back to the moment before the cards were drawn and ask them “what are the top 2 cards?” they couldn't tell you. If they'd scried them to the top, then drawn them, it would be different.

Note that the land that was played should not be part of the set used in the HCE remedy, even if you do rewind to before it was played.

carry on…

d:^D

Hey there Michel,

I agree with this line being the most obvious one for fixing this problem. But there is also another thing i didn't make clear, the comunication problem between players didn't made it gave me confidence if Player A was really passing the turn. He eventually agreed he was passing the turn but i felt like he did it because he was embarassed and would agree with anything.

I completelly agree with the most obvious fix and what i did was what Megan sugested, i was also in doubt if we should have shuffled the cards, but thank you Mark for clearing that.

But I still had the shadow of doubt regarding the comunication problem between the players and if a different line should be considered or not.

Originally posted by Gabriel Batista Vieira de Sousa:

But I still had the Shadow of Doubt regarding the comunication problem between the players and if a different line should be considered or not.

What significance do you think passing the turn has? How would that change the fix to be carried out?

I wasnt completly sure about the fix i did so i came here to get a better opinion on the subject. But now im convinced that treating the scry as if the player left it on top and performing the HCE fix was the right call.

In my head there was a possibility that we could consider reperforming the scry, but the player progressed the game so this line was not possible anymore. I thought the passing of the turn might influence this in some way.

In this case, if you consider the player scrying on top because he missed it, shouldn't you assume that the cards are known, since they are scryed to the top?

Originally posted by Dino Turković:

In this case, if you consider the player scrying on top because he missed it, shouldn't you assume that the cards are known, since they are scryed to the top?

I mentioned my thoughts on that a few posts up.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

I mentioned my thoughts on that a few posts up.

I saw your point, that's why I asked my question, as players actually remembering the cards shouldn't matter. If you see 3 anticipates in the graveyard when you need to shuffle the deck you will leave the cards on the bottom even if the player has no idea what the cards are. If we assume, as the rules tell us to, that the missed scry is scry on top, we should treat it as any other scry on top.

it's not about remembering or not - the player doesn't know, because they didn't look. “Not looking” is very different to “looking and putting them on top”.

Originally posted by Dino Turković:

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

I mentioned my thoughts on that a few posts up.

I saw your point, that's why I asked my question, as players actually remembering the cards shouldn't matter. If you see 3 anticipates in the graveyard when you need to shuffle the deck you will leave the cards on the bottom even if the player has no idea what the cards are. If we assume, as the rules tell us to, that the missed scry is scry on top, we should treat it as any other scry on top.

Dino, with the older version of MTR, we might have this confusion. However, the lastest version of MTR has clear this out specifically.

A player who does not scry (or look at the top card of the library after taking a mulligan) when
instructed to is assumed to have not looked and chosen to leave the cards in the same order.

As Mark said, they didn't look, they didn't know.