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Competitive REL » Post: Looking at two cards while drawing a card.

Looking at two cards while drawing a card.

Sept. 1, 2017 10:37:18 PM

Russell Deutsch
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Looking at two cards while drawing a card.

Scott - Why can this same logic not be applied to HCE in situations where both players agree what extra card was drawn? If I have my 4 card hand face down on the table in front of me and I draw the top card of my library and put it on top of my hand it has become “indistinguishable” regardless if the players agree on which card it is.

This check is in place to prevent abuse.

If I lift the top 2 cards of my library and see the card I would have drawn, I can argue that I'm not sure what order they're in if I want to shuffle my library. If I want to keep the top card in place, I can press upon my opponent to agree the cards are still in the same order.

Finally - removing the players' opinions from calls like this would create a more uniform fix for players and judges moving forward, and lessen the ambiguity of judge calls for all involved ("But judge, that other judge does it THIS way!“)


Edit -
One more thought to add: Philosophically, there is no real reason NOT to do this other than player-based superstition. When it comes to cards' specific locations within the library the program has a consistent philosophical stance of ”random is random“ other than this corner case where preserving the location of a random card becomes important for no practical reason other than to prevent a ”feel-bad" that shouldn't exist and only adds to gameplay insecurity by allowing players' opinions to alter judge call outcomes. (Sorry for the run-on sentence)

For all of these reasons listed, the practice of preserving the top card for LEC calls should be scrutinized and perhaps reconsidered.

Edited Russell Deutsch (Sept. 2, 2017 03:22:04 AM)

Sept. 2, 2017 07:28:21 AM

Andrew Keeler
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southeast

Looking at two cards while drawing a card.

Originally posted by Russell Deutsch:

One more thought to add: Philosophically, there is no real reason NOT to do this other than player-based superstition. When it comes to cards' specific locations within the library the program has a consistent philosophical stance of ”random is random“ other than this corner case where preserving the location of a random card becomes important for no practical reason other than to prevent a ”feel-bad" that shouldn't exist and only adds to gameplay insecurity by allowing players' opinions to alter judge call outcomes. (Sorry for the run-on sentence)

I disagree with this assessment. Nowhere in the IPG (that I'm aware of) are we instructed to use a “random is random” line of reasoning when applying a fix. As a practical matter we can note that multiple randomizations of a set are identical to a single randomization (as with Green sun's zenith, for example), but we only ever shuffle away seen cards when the player who has seen them has no legitimate claim to knowing their location in the library.

The point of having a fix designed to disincentivize abuse is that we don't catch every cheat, and so having the “penalty floor” be in place to mitigate any potential advantage gained. This means that we need to look at what an abuse situation looks like to determine how we want to mitigate it.

For HCE, the abuse case is simple. Having more cards gives more options, so players will be incentivized to commit this error when they want to improve their hands or their choices from a card like Collected Company. We disincentivize this by ensuring that, when we fix the HCE, the set that gained the extra card is never better than (and is often worse that) it would have been had the extra card not been added to it.

LEC is a risk for abuse when a player is instructed to manipulate some number of cards in their library. The abuse case, then, is when the player looks at the cards they are entitled to see and sees that they are “bad,” so they are incentivized to look at extra cards to try and find “good” ones. It's unlikely for a player to see a “good” card and then decide to look at extra cards, they would risk a penalty in an already favorable situation. Since the abuse case for LEC is when the player is digging for their “good” cards, a judge coming along and shuffling all the “bad” cards away would be to incentivize the abuse, since the player has now gotten twice as many looks for their “good” cards as they were entitled to. We can disincentivize this sort of behavior by preserving the location of the cards the player was entitled to see so that a player doesn't gain extra looks for their “good” cards and is stuck with the “bad” ones they had anyway.

I also want to note that even in HCE cases we never shuffle all the cards away, only the cards that are in excess of what the player was entitled to. This is completely consistent with only shuffling away the extra seen cards from LEC, as opposed to shuffling away all the cards seen in the infraction.

Sept. 2, 2017 09:14:24 AM

Russell Deutsch
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Northeast

Looking at two cards while drawing a card.

Hi Andrew! Thanks for joining the conversation.

Originally posted by Andrew Keeler:

Nowhere in the IPG (that I'm aware of) are we instructed to use a “random is random” line of reasoning when applying a fix.

Off the top of my head, GRV rewinds through a player's draw step put a random card from the hand on top of the library. That is just the first one that went through my mind, there may be more.

Also, thank you for the explanation of the philosophical differences in fixes for HCE and LEC, but I think there was a misunderstanding as to why I posted the scenario that I did. Please bear with me as I try to explain myself more clearly:

What I meant is - I have my 4 card hand face down in a single pile in front of me with both hands under the table. I reach up with my right hand, draw one card that I am not entitled to draw, and place that card face-down on top of the other 4 cards that are in my hand, and I now have a pile of 5 cards in front of me when I should have 4. I have committed HCE. The top card is clearly the card I've drawn. However unlike LEC we cannot use the players' mutual agreement that the card I've drawn is on the top of the pile, because when the card joins the hand it is considered indistinguishable.

Finally, I was not looking for an LEC abuse case that focuses on why someone would want to commit LEC intentionally. I was looking for an abuse case that allows one player to divert the outcome of a judge call after the accidental infraction occurred and information has been gained.

I hope that better explains my position here,
Russ