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Competitive REL » Post: Question about Chalice triggers and Mana Manipulation.

Question about Chalice triggers and Mana Manipulation.

Nov. 3, 2017 01:32:00 PM

Mark Brown
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), Regional Coordinator (Australia and New Zealand), Scorekeeper

Australia and New Zealand

Question about Chalice triggers and Mana Manipulation.

I don't think I'm ever going to issue USC - Cheating in this instance.

Hoping your opponent doesn't know Opt is a 1 mana spell?

It's not unheard of for a player to try and cast into a Chalice in the hope the opponent forgets the trigger.

There is nothing illegal tapping multple lands. Yes technically players are required to announce floating mana, but are we as judges issuing GRVs for every single time players don't announce it?

Nov. 3, 2017 01:40:23 PM

Joe Klopchic
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))

Seattle, Washington, United States of America

Question about Chalice triggers and Mana Manipulation.

This is 100% a question of judgement of the Head Judge of whether this player knew what he was doing.

If the player knows that he must announce floating mana, then this is cheating since he has intentionally not done so to gain an advantage.

If the player thinks this is legal because of some misconception of the rules, then this is not cheating.

Investigating by talking to the player and trying to determine what he knows and what he is intending to do. It is likely that the player will admit to trying to get his opponent to miss the trigger. It is also likely that they will avoid admitting that they know exactly how this works if they do. It's a judgement call of the Head Judge whether to believe the player or not.

Nov. 3, 2017 03:37:05 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Question about Chalice triggers and Mana Manipulation.

I'll just chime in and agree with Mark Brown & Joe Klopchic.

First, as Mark said - no ‘O’ is forthcoming - because, as Joe said, this can only be determined by the Head Judge, at the time it happens.

Also, I'll go a bit further than Mark's skepticism re: “hoping your opponent doesn't know Opt is 1 cmc”; I don't think this would ever happen, as described. While Mark's right that players try to run something by a Chalice, in hopes of a Missed Trigger, this sequence just isn't believable. (And sure, I know it might have actually happened once … it still isn't believable!)

Finally, as Jasper pointed out, the player would have to know they're breaking a rule for this to be Cheating. As described in the original post, the “clever” player is Opting for a line of play they hope will work, but not something they hope they'll “get away with” - i.e., they aren't breaking any rules, in their mind.

d:^D