Hmmm interesting angle Sean, never looked at it that way… food for thought again!

Originally posted by Sean Hunt:

I wouldn't allow this. The MIPG states “Triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated”. This means that, by announcing an incorrect damage total before his opponent indicated that the trigger was missed, the defending player has broken the communication rules. Since he was doing so deliberately, it's Cheating and deserves a disqualification.

Question: What part of MTR 4.1 has the defending player violated?

Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.

I'm with Sean. Until AP says otherwise, NP must assume Exalted has triggered and stating damage taken as if Exalted has not triggered is misrepresenting the damage.

Originally posted by Dominik Chlobowski:

I'm with Sean. Until AP says otherwise, NP must assume Exalted has triggered and stating damage taken as if Exalted has not triggered is misrepresenting the damage.

The amount of damage taken is based on what happens in the combat damage step. Whether that's damage assigned or damage dealt. It's a future action, depending on the active player actually remembering his or her trigger (or not taking any other action), not a current action. What part of the definition of free or derived information applies to combat damage yet to be assigned or dealt?

What's the difference between this and asking for the P/T of the creature? If I ask “So, that's a 1/1?” have I committed an infraction?

Certainly, I can presume you've remembered the trigger until you demonstrated otherwise. If I ask you for the amount of damage and you reply “1”, then haven't you demonstrated otherwise?

Originally posted by Sean Hunt:

I wouldn't allow this. The MIPG states “Triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated”. This means that, by announcing an incorrect damage total before his opponent indicated that the trigger was missed, the defending player has broken the communication rules. Since he was doing so deliberately, it's Cheating and deserves a disqualification.

I think what this line is saying is that, after a trigger has been pointed out and acknowledged, it is assumed that both players understand that the game state has changed. After I tell you once that my Thragtusk is indestructible, he's indestructible. Right now it sounds like Sean is interpreting it to mean that regardless of whether or not the trigger is ever even acknowledged it is in effect, which I do not believe is the case.

The full context of that section of the IPG:

Even if an opponent is involved in the announcement or resolution of the ability, the controller is still responsible for ensuring the opponents make the appropriate choices and take the appropriate actions. Players are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish. Triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated, and the impact on the game state may not be immediately apparent. The opponent’s benefit is in not having to point out triggered abilities, although this does not mean that they can cause triggers to be missed.

So if you turn your 2/1 Exalted creature sideways and then look to me for a reaction, I allow a little bit of time to pass and you have in no way pointed out that you just created an Exalted trigger, is that not a missed trigger? You've missed your opportunity to announce that your 2/1 guy is now bigger, so he remains a 2/1 (since your opponent in most cases is probably not going to allow you to put the trigger on the stack at that time), at which I point I respond by blocking or not, saying I'm going to take 2, etc.

But even without a missed trigger like Exalted affecting P/T, saying that you're going to take X damage when it's really X+Y damage is hardly grounds for punishment. In one scenario, my opponent will do his math and say no, it's X+Y, and I'll take X+Y. In the other, he'll take me at my word and we'll both agree that it's X damage. Whether or not I'm being sneaky is going to be pretty tough to determine definitely because I could just be absent-minded and had genuinely forgotten that you were swinging in with all of those guys plus your Ash Zealot, so I just missed 2 points of damage.

On the other hand, if we both agree that I'm going to take 6 damage, but I only mark that I'm taking 4, that's an entirely different situation.

Edited Jack Janeski (May 12, 2013 08:19:49 PM)

Originally posted by Jack Janeski:

So if you turn your 2/1 Exalted creature sideways and then look to me for a reaction, I allow a little bit of time to pass and you have in no way pointed out that you just created an Exalted trigger, is that not a missed trigger?

Not quite. Keep in mind that since the exalted trigger has no visible effect, it doesn't have to be acknowledged until it does have a visible effect on the game. For a creature that gets +1/+1 when it attacks, the active player would have to acknowledge it by the time that creature would assign damage. (See the fourth bullet under the Definition section of MIPG 2.1.) Certainly, the active player can acknowledge the trigger sooner (for example, when I flashback Geistflame and you point out that the creature's toughness is 2), but the last opportunity the player has to act would be when the creature actually assigns damage.

The question is: Does the opponent have an obligation to act as if the trigger has resolved? Can the opponent act in a way that presumes the trigger was missed? Or can the opponent even make statements that would “encourage” the player to believe there was no trigger? And what infraction has the opponent committed, if any, in any of these kinds of scenarios.

Asking “take 1?” is not cheating, it would be undermining the current missed trigger rules if you were not allowed to ask it in such a way that you're not helping your opponent.

@Niki: About the players who were bragging about their cheats (the +3/+3). Have a talk with them! Explain to them where the line is, and also try to get across that it's lame to behave like that at regular to new players. (Be vigilant about this, every time you see lame behavior say something about it. They'll get it at a certain point.)
Side note: Are you sure the First Strike wasn't a Soulbond trigger that got missed? Because that is still within the rules.

@Kenny, thanks, it's what I indeed try to do!

The thing with asking “take 1” is probably still okay (in my book). The problem is when somebody -says- “I take 1” and quickly scribbling it down with the intent of drawing attention away from the exalted trigger.

Edited Niki Lin (May 13, 2013 05:48:02 AM)

Originally posted by Niki Lin:

The thing with asking “take 1” is probably still okay (in my book). The problem is when somebody -says- “I take 1” and quickly scribbling it down with the intent of drawing attention away from the exalted trigger.

Not really. Even under that scenario the active player still (a) has an opportunity to point out the actual amount of damage the defending player is dealt and (b) is normally obligated to point out the amount of damage that defending player is dealt. Is the defending player encouraging a certain line that could result in the active player missing the trigger? Yes, and it's certainly not sporting behavior. But, it's not unsporting behavior and the active player still has every opportunity to point out the correct amount of damage at that moment. Especially since it is the active player's responsibility at that point in combat.