Yesterday, while traveling, I saw this post from Tommy Lee, then saw it got duplicated, so I cleaned up the duplicate; unfortunately, someone else had already cleaned up the other duplicate, meaning both posts were now gone! So, with my apologies, here's Tommy's original post for everyone to (re)read, and comment.

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Ok a situation came up and I think I ruled right. But using this as a learning experience.

Sat night modern at my LGS. Hope this makes sense

AP- has 9 mana and casts a 10 cmc, passes turn (Kozilek, the Great Distortion)

NAP now becomes AP

AP draws a card for the turn and moves it to his hand.

NAP realizes his mistake and mentions it

THEY backed it up without calling me over and THEN called me over.

So since they backed up the 9 mana is used to play thought knot.

Since it was backed up the AP before the back up does not remember what card he drew. So hidden card situation.

I called that since he did not remember the other player picked a random card and had him put that back.

That was my understanding.

Part2
AP played an illegal action so GRV

When his opponent missed the wrong play he would get a fail to maintain board state.

Would there also be a hidden card error?

I hope this makes some sense. I also told them to never just back up and call a judge and they understood and were very cooperative.


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did I make the right call for the situation?

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First off, I'm going to suggest that you use consistent names for players. Switching back and forth between AP and NAP is confusing to readers.

Since this is Regular REL, there shouldn't be any GRVs or HCEs. I'm not clear on what the exact situation here was (Did the player draw off of Kozilek? Was the Thought-Knot Seer trigger resolved? What did the player backup entail?) so I can't tell you what I would have done. Generally with convoluted situations like this there's no good way to repair the game, you just do what you can and get the players playing again, making sure to educate them not to try and solve things themselves in the future.

Backing up the illegal casting of the spell is a fine solution if not too many decisions have been made since then and/or based upon that spell being cast. That seems to be the case here.
Undoing the card draw by putting a random card from the hand on top of the deck (Without shuffling) is also what is prescribed by the Judging at Regular document. So that all seems to have gone well.

In part two you are using infractions from the IPG that are about fixing things at competitive REL. We do not typically use these at regular REL events like FNM.
If your players are interested in knowing how this stuff would have been ruled at comp rel it's of course fine to share how that would have worked. However, in many cases (most) it's best to not go into these infractions and rather stick to the Regular REL fix and get the players back to playing their game.

So there is no Hidden Card Error, because those don't exist at Regular. At comp Rel it also wouldn't be HCE. The card was drawn legally and correctly, there is just some premature information as the result of the earlier infraction. But that doesn't make it an infraction.

Thanks, Issac and Quinten and Scott!

to clear it up I was not giving the infractions, I was more doing that for myself and self-learning. They were not given any infractions as per fnm.

also Issac in the future I will work on the structure of how I type in the forums of the situation. My mind is full of AP and NAP after studying and flashcards for lvl 1

Edited Tommy Lee (April 17, 2018 07:07:09 PM)

Using AP and NAP is fine. Whoever is AP at the start of the scenario should remain AP throughout it to avoid confusion. Another common convention (and also the one used on tests) is to choose some name starting with A for AP and a name starting with N for NAP. Again, keeping it consistent throughout the entirety of the scenario. For example: Alice and Nick are playing in a Modern FNM… where Alice is assumed to be AP at the start of the scenario and Nick is NAP at the start, and from this introduction we can understand this is Regular REL as well as it's an FNM.

Try to be careful not to apply IPG policy in a Regular REL scenario. If you would like to discuss how it is handled in a Competitive REL situation, be sure to state so up front.

Had this been Competitive REL, we have no HCE here. The root cause of the problem is a GRV (playing the 10 CMC spell with 9 mana). Any cards drawn as a consequence of that or since then seem to have been otherwise legal actions. Thus, we would apply a warning for GRV to AP (and a warning for FtMGS to NAP). Per the IPG policy for GRV, our options are essentially to perform a backup or leave it as is, whichever we deem to be less disruptive to the game factoring in what has happened since the error occurred.

At regular, as per the JAR, the approach is essentially the same minus the warnings. It's a little unusual that they backed the game up themselves and then called you over. If they had called me over, I might walk through what happened since the error and compare that to the backup they applied to their own match to ensure nothing had been missed. Sounds like an educational experience for the players at least.

Thanks for all the answers and advice!