As a floor judge at a GP, I'm supposed to be independent when it comes to issuing warnings, but potential game loss penalties go through the head judge (or sometimes, depending on the event, through a team lead).

What are best practices for floor judges once the warning upgrade path comes into the picture?

For instance, if I see a player casting a Lilliana of the Veil for GGB, and I know that they've gotten two GRVs before, do I issue the warning or do I pause the match and go to the head judge? What if I've seen Judges issue two warnings to the player before, but I'm not sure whether they were GRVs or something else?

Hi Eli,

I have been also struggling with this. Usually, I try to ask the player what were their previous Warning infractions like, to get the picture. Whenever I tried to get this information from the scorekeeper it was not possible (penalties are usually entered into the system only at the end of the day and it is not easy to find quickly those particular result slips from previous rounds.

Personally, I hope that there will be a day when the Tournament Reporter Software will have an interface which would be accessible by an app installed on judges' smart devices. This interface would allow to view and edit information about the event. This would have many possible use cases. Speed up of End of Round, instantaneous work with penalties, providing information to players (pairings, standings)…

Different Head Judges might feel differently, but my recommendation is that you should consult with a Level 3 Judge before doing anything with a game in progress that's hard to undo. Ending a game certainly fits that criteria, so getting an experienced second pair of eyes on the GRV is probably a good idea before players scoop up their cards.

In addition, a third GPE in the same category might ring some alarm bells for cheating, so getting another person to suggest some questions to ask can be helpful. It's one thing if a player forgot to gain life off a puzzleknot, but another if this is the third time a player put a creature in his or her graveyard after it was Pathed, while playing a deck with Eternal Witness.

Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:

Hi Eli,

I have been also struggling with this. Usually, I try to ask the player what were their previous Warning infractions like, to get the picture. Whenever I tried to get this information from the scorekeeper it was not possible (penalties are usually entered into the system only at the end of the day and it is not easy to find quickly those particular result slips from previous rounds.

Personally, I hope that there will be a day when the Tournament Reporter Software will have an interface which would be accessible by an app installed on judges' smart devices. This interface would allow to view and edit information about the event. This would have many possible use cases. Speed up of End of Round, instantaneous work with penalties, providing information to players (pairings, standings)…

Hi Milan,
For large scale events in North America(and maybe other areas) we have been using a web-based software called Purple Fox to assist with End of Round. At this point I expect that using it to track penalties is beyond the scope of the design, but it might be something worth looking into at some point.

As far as checking with the scorekeeper: is this an issue that you've run into with large events? I don't think I've ever worked at a GP or SCG Tour event where the scorekeeper couldn't tell me at any given time how many penalties a player has, nor where the slips weren't sorted to some degree (even if it is only sorted by 50s). Is this at smaller events where you run into this issue?

As for Eli's original question: I expect that we would want to pause the match, verify with the scorekeeper that this is in fact an occurrence that would result in an upgrade, and also check in with an L3, appeals judge, or the head judge as John Brian suggested (which is handy as the head judge will often be near the scorekeeper anyway). This could also save some time in the long run as there is a high probability of the player appealing.

Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:

Personally, I hope that there will be a day when the Tournament Reporter Software will have an interface which would be accessible by an app installed on judges' smart devices. This interface would allow to view and edit information about the event. This would have many possible use cases. Speed up of End of Round, instantaneous work with penalties, providing information to players (pairings, standings)…

Pairings, standings, penalties, etc etc also already exists! I made it :)
https://chat.mtgpairings.info

Originally posted by Eli Meyer:

For instance, if I see a player casting a Lilliana of the Veil for GGB, and I know that they've gotten two GRVs before, do I issue the warning or do I pause the match and go to the head judge? What if I've seen Judges issue two warnings to the player before, but I'm not sure whether they were GRVs or something else?

I would:
1) Step in, make sure I understand the situation (“Excuse me, did you just cast Liliana with only 1 black mana?” - make sure there isn't an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I didn't see)
(2 - not in this situation where I already know they have 2 prior GRVs, but I usually ask “Have you had any warnings so far today?” and if they say “yes” then ask “what were they for” as a way of trying to determine the warning types)
3) Tell the players “I need to consult with another judge about something, please don't play on, I'll make sure you get a full time extension”
4) Find a Team Lead / L3 / HJ (same as for HCE, depends on what was requested of me for the event, this should have been told to me as part of my beginning-of-day team- or all-judge meeting). At this point you can defer to that judge as to whether you should check with the scorekeeper, whether it's particularly fishy, or any other concerns.

Edited Aaron Henner (April 21, 2018 07:49:14 PM)

If you already assessed what is the correct infraction and fix, but the penalty may be either a Warning or a Game Loss, and you have to consult with another judge, then please make players play instead of waiting. Either it's a Warning and you saved everybody time, or it's a Game Loss and the game will be over anyway.

Only keep the game on hold if you believe the other judge may need extra elements than what you gathered and you don't want to destroy information.

- Emilien

Originally posted by Chris Wendelboe:

As far as checking with the scorekeeper: is this an issue that you've run into with large events? I don't think I've ever worked at a GP or SCG Tour event where the scorekeeper couldn't tell me at any given time how many penalties a player has, nor where the slips weren't sorted to some degree (even if it is only sorted by 50s). Is this at smaller events where you run into this issue?

Yes, my experience comes from GP.

Chris and Simon,

Those apps are great initiatives and I know they exist. However, I would love to have such features available out of the box in the official tournament software, so they become standard and any TO worldwide can use them without extra effort. I understand that, based on my experience with WotC IT, it is just not realistic. But, I can have my dreams, can't I? :-D

Emilien, I’m not sure about letting them play.
What if, while we go away to check with the SK, the player who committed the GRV wins the game? What do we do then? We go back and change the result of the game? Maybe even the match (if this was the third game)? We assign the game loss on the next round?

Originally posted by Federico Verdini:

Emilien, I’m not sure about letting them play.
What if, while we go away to check with the SK, the player who committed the GRV wins the game? What do we do then? We go back and change the result of the game? Maybe even the match (if this was the third game)? We assign the game loss on the next round?

It's easy enough to change the result after the fact if that was game 3. It's much more difficult if that player is up a game and ends the match game 2, and both players go their separate ways.

But it's because of these possibilities that I would advise keeping the match paused while we check, or have another Judge keep an eye on them while we check to make sure nobody leaves the table or anything of the sort (it would help here to take the match slip with us while checking).

Originally posted by Federico Verdini:

Emilien, I’m not sure about letting them play.
What if, while we go away to check with the SK, the player who committed the GRV wins the game? What do we do then? We go back and change the result of the game? Maybe even the match (if this was the third game)? We assign the game loss on the next round?

additionally, what happens if the player didn't feel like arguing about a ruling that got them a warning, but decides to appeal the floor judge's ruling once it becomes clear a game loss is at issue?