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Competitive REL » Post: Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

Dec. 18, 2018 04:21:26 AM [Original Post]

Karl Simmons
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Great Lakes

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

As a preface, the example I'm going to provide uses Panglacial Wurm, because professionals have considered it in Mono Green Tron, a competitive viable deck. This question has implications outside of Panglacial Wurm, including all Future Sight effects.


Stated simply, there are several steps in casting a spell, which you complete in a linear order every time you cast a spell. If a player knows that they cannot, or do not want to, complete one step, is it still legal …
As a preface, the example I'm going to provide uses Panglacial Wurm, because professionals have considered it in Mono Green Tron, a competitive viable deck. This question has implications outside of Panglacial Wurm, including all Future Sight effects.


Stated simply, there are several steps in casting a spell, which you complete in a linear order every time you cast a spell. If a player knows that they cannot, or do not want to, complete one step, is it still legal to complete all steps preceding the step where they intend to break? I realize that this question is functionally irrelevant in almost all cases, but not every case.

For a functional example, Aaron has Expedition Map, Chromatic Sphere, and three lands in play. Aaron sacrifices Expedition Map, and begins searching their library, starting by picking up and looking at just the top card of their library. Aaron sees that it's a card that they'd like to draw, so they separate it noticeably for their opponent, and clarify that it's the top card of their library before continuing. They thumb to a Panglacial Wurm in their library, and say “I'm going to move Panglacial Wurm to the stack. When I can activate mana abilities, I will sacrifice Chromatic Sphere, adding green. Draw this card,” then they point to the card they separated earlier, and don't physically move it into their hand. “I can't pay the total cost of Panglacial Wurm, so it goes back to the part of the library it came from. I can't reverse my Chromatic Sphere draw. I'll continue resolving Expedition Map.”

In the comprehensive rules, 721 handles illegal actions. 721.1 begins, “If a player takes an illegal action or starts to take an action but can’t legally complete it, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled…” By beginning the steps of casting a spell, without the ability or intention to complete those steps, Aaron has brought the game to an error state, which must be corrected. We already have a prescribed way to correct the game state. What we lack is an answer as to whether or not Aaron has committed an infraction by intentionally bringing the game to this state. Has Aaron “taken an illegal action” or has Aaron “taken an action but can't legally complete it.” All actions that Aaron has taken are legal, with the potential exception of beginning a process he couldn't complete. The question is just that; is beginning the process illegal if completing the process is impossible or not the intention.


I believe the existing comprehensive rules support interpretations in favor both for and against this being an infraction. I don't think there's an unambiguous answer that exists at this moment, which is why I bring it here instead of the floor of a competitive REL event. For what it's worth, while it's a confusing line of play to allow, I don't worry about the harm of this trick being legal. It doesn't seem like it can cause any damage, as just one of many arcane loopholes one can utilize given a deep understanding of the rules, similar to the recent Krark-Clan Ironworks trick that has been discovered by the larger community. I am worried that by designating it illegal, we are setting a precedent where our policy looks into the future to determine if present actions are legal.


PS: I promise I'm not playing stump the chump here. The point of this question isn't some game to see if I can come up with the most convoluted loophole in Magic. This started as some passing idea I had about Future Sight, and when I figured out the implications it had with Panglacial Wurm, I realized that it has the potential for competitive play. Green tron can check for a land or bomb they are missing on top of their library with every search effect, and choose whether or not they want to draw it if they have a Sphere in play and a Wurm in their library. It's a marginal advantage, but a significant one. If this trick is legal, I intend to play with it.

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Edited Karl Simmons (Dec. 18, 2018 04:57:57 AM)

Dec. 18, 2018 05:34:43 AM [Marked as Accepted Answer]

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

First, thanks to Andrew for linking my similar answer (and saving me some time!).

Second - Karl, I think I was fairly clear in that previous (Official) answer. If you intentionally do something that you know is (or will become) illegal in order to gain an advantage, you’re Cheating.

While the Comp Rules cover what players do when an action can’t be completed legally, the IPG instructs Judges on what to do. When you break a rule in the …
First, thanks to Andrew for linking my similar answer (and saving me some time!).

Second - Karl, I think I was fairly clear in that previous (Official) answer. If you intentionally do something that you know is (or will become) illegal in order to gain an advantage, you’re Cheating.

While the Comp Rules cover what players do when an action can’t be completed legally, the IPG instructs Judges on what to do. When you break a rule in the CR, it’s a Game Play Error, often specifically a Game Rule Violation. Doing so intentionally, to gain advantage, checks all the boxes for Cheating.

d:^D

P.S. - this is also a candidate for Most Extreme Corner Case Annually (MECCA?). Blech…

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Dec. 18, 2018 09:26:13 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

I should add that, in your original scenario, the card drawn from Chromatic Sphere must be set aside face down until the process of casting the Panglacial Wurm is complete:
Originally posted by CR 120.8.:

If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2i).
If the rules are followed, and we decide to reverse illegal actions instead of assessing a DQ (the player honestly didn't know it was illegal, perhaps?), then we can just put that card right back where it came from; no one should have any new information about the identity of that card (it isn't looked at, then set aside face down; it's just as unknown as it was on top of the library).
Originally posted by Karl:

I believe the existing comprehensive rules support interpretations in favor both for and against this being an infraction.
Then please, accept my ‘O’fficial answer that the correct interpretation is that this would be an infraction, and - if you know you're performing an illegal action - it seems to match the definition of Cheating.
Originally posted by Karl:

I think it's more common to interpret “the casting of the spell” as the final step, 601.2i, “the spell becomes cast.”
Perhaps, but that's incorrect. The entire process outlined in 601.2 defines Casting a spell, which concludes with 601.2i; that step clarifies when triggers will fire if they look for “a spell is cast” (e.g., Counterbalance). This is actually fairly clearly explained by the opening paragraph of 602.

d:^D

Dec. 18, 2018 04:41:24 PM

Anniek Van der Peijl
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy))

BeNeLux

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

At the risk of making this even more of a corner case: what if we replace the chromatic sphere with Selvala, where you don't know up front whether you will have enough mana to cast panglacial worm or not?

Dec. 18, 2018 06:03:22 PM

Toby Hazes
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), TLC

BeNeLux

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

Originally posted by Karl Simmons:

@ both
The phrase “If a player takes an illegal action or starts to take an action but can’t legally complete it…” implies that these are not mutually inclusive. I'm not arguing that the existence of rules to handle an illegal action make that action legal by definition, I'm saying that this phrasing implies that things which aren't illegal actions can still fall into this bucket. A player has started to take an action but cannot legally complete it. There isn't a definition that codifies that as inherently illegal, and it's subtraction from “If a player takes an illegal action” can be read to imply that it is legal.

The “or” is there because there are 2 different things that are both illegal, not because there are two things of which one is legal and one is not. “Taking an illegal action” and “starting to take an action that can't be legally completed” are 2 different things that are both illegal. The emphasis should be on “takes” and “starts”, that's why the “or” is needed.

Edited Toby Hazes (Dec. 18, 2018 06:12:25 PM)

Dec. 18, 2018 10:29:34 PM

Federico Verdini
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program)), GP Team-Lead-in-Training

Hispanic America - South

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

As long as there’s a chance you would be able to cast it with Selvala, then that’s fine by me. The player doesn’t know the action they’re performing is illegal, only that it could be so
You can go even further down the rabbit hole of this corner case. If they somehow know they’ll be unable to cast it, for example because they need everyone at the game to reveal a nonland and they have a land in the top, then we’re back to cheating

Dec. 18, 2018 11:36:50 PM

Joshua Feingold
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

Selvala specifically is handled by special rules that make you not reverse
the draw or the mana production because the cards were revealed during the
resolution of the mana ability. This was a foreseen problem.

This whole scenario is insanely simple:

Judge: “When you started this series of actions, did you think you were
going to end up in a legal game state?”
Player: “No.”
Judge: “Then why did you do it?”
Player: “To gain some advantage.”
Judge: Vaudeville Hook

Edited Joshua Feingold (Dec. 18, 2018 11:41:11 PM)

Dec. 19, 2018 12:01:58 PM

Mark Brown
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), Regional Coordinator (Australia and New Zealand), Scorekeeper

Australia and New Zealand

Is it legal to begin the steps of casting a spell without the ability or intention to complete those steps?

I think we can say this has run its course, Scott's answer is still the official answer for this
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