Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Competitive REL » Post: Specific Questions re: 1/21 Change to Missed Triggers

Specific Questions re: 1/21 Change to Missed Triggers

Jan. 22, 2019 02:10:26 AM

Beau
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Midatlantic

Specific Questions re: 1/21 Change to Missed Triggers

Hello! I've tweeted some of this to Toby Elliot in response to the policy change this morning, but I wanted to also bring the questions here for wider visibility (both in folks who can answer them, and in folks who can benefit from the clarification).

The “delayed zone change” exception specifies that it applies if such a trigger “undoes” a zone change caused by the same spell or effect that created the delayed trigger. This clearly applies to things like Aetherling, and the rework kicks Prized Amalgam and the Hour of Devastation Gods out of that category. However, how specific is “undo”? Does the second zone change have to be moving the object back to the same zone that it came from? The inclusion of self-destructing tokens in this exception would suggest that “undo” is broader than that, since tokens move from UNDEFINED to Battlefield to either Exile or Graveyard, depending on the specific wording.

If that is not the case, and “undo” is specific to “back to the same zone”, then are the delayed zone change triggers of Sneak Attack and Through the Breach being treated as regular, missable triggers going forward?

Second question: Missed Triggers asks judges to only intervene in a match if “they intend to issue a Warning or believe that the controller is intentionally missing this”. With the change to Missed Trigger Upgrades - a Warning is only assessed if the controller of the trigger also owns the card that caused it - do we always assume that players who miss Generally Detrimental triggers are doing so intentionally, and step in?

If a player controls a Captive Audience given to them by an opponent, and we notice that they moved right through upkeep without acknowledging it, do we step in even if we believe that the reason is they have genuinely forgotten it (crowded board, cards partially covering each other, etc etc)? I would like to believe that we still step in and enforce the Generally Detrimental trigger, but do so without giving the player a Warning; however, that doesn't match the “judges should only intervene” line unless we start with the belief that they are intentionally missing the trigger, i.e. Cheating.

What if the trigger that's missed is Generally Detrimental, but can be beneficial in this game state (e.g. I control a Captive Audience and also Death's Shadow or a Rakdos Charm in hand, which each benefit from a mode)? Do we still start with the assumption that the trigger is being missed intentionally because it is Generally Detrimental, even though a keen player would not intentionally miss those triggers?

Jan. 22, 2019 10:47:20 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Specific Questions re: 1/21 Change to Missed Triggers

First, I'd like to point out that Toby's blog post continues to gain comments & responses (where appropriate), which expands greatly on the things we need to understand about the new IPG. I recommend (re)reading it, regularly.

I'll also suggest asking questions there, if only to help consolidate all our new knowledge.

Originally posted by Matt Wall:

Do we still start with the assumption that the trigger is being missed intentionally because it is Generally Detrimental
I'm not sure we ever started with any such assumption; I know I try to avoid that, esp. when an investigation is likely. Or, short version: never assume.

Having said that, I think your dilemma is a valid concern: it seems there's a disconnect between “only intervene {if it's a} Warning” and the new, admittedly small slice of triggers that aren't really yours (e.g., the Captive Audience example you cited). I will stop short of calling this ‘O’fficial for now, but I will step in when I see something that's usually detrimental, if only to assess the need for further investigation.
(Yes, I understand that may lead to rare feel-bads from opponents who were sitting on that missed trigger until it was more advantageous to call attention to it - e.g., Pact of Negation.)

As for your questions about “undo”, I think this sentence from Toby's blog helps: “That’s more narrow, but still hits the cards that you’d think would be intuitively in this bucket.” The fact that Geist of Saint Traft is called out as an example of where those Delayed Trigger Abilities still need to get to the correct end result, is reason enough for me to continue removing the Geist's Angel token once it's noticed.

d:^D