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Backing up Karn, Scion of Urza?
March 26, 2019 04:23:12 PM [Original Post]
- Andrew Keeler
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Southeast
Backing up Karn, Scion of Urza?
AP commits a GRV, then activates and resolves the +1 ability of Karn, Scion of Urza. Once the cards have been revealed and one has been placed in AP's hand, AP realizes they have committed a GRV and call a judge.
Leaving aside the question of “do you back up here?” how do you back up the activation of Karn? A strict reading of policy is unclear here since the IPG says:
The two cards revealed by Karn are known to both players, so they aren't clearly covered by the second sentence, but they also are no longer in “a specific location in the library” and arguably have been “drawn” so they also aren't clearly covered by the first sentence.
There are two possible interpretations here that I can think of:
1) Strict reading of the first sentence, broad reading of the second. Even though the cards are known to both players, they are still being returned to the library and should not be considered random. Return the two revealed cards to the top of Library in a random order.
2) Broad reading of the first sentence, strict reading of the second. The library was random before Karn's activation, and will been returned to that state. Since the cards become known to both players, they can be safely shuffled away without further damage to the game state.
Which remedy is the most appropriate one?
Leaving aside the question of “do you back up here?” how do you back up the activation of Karn? A strict reading of policy is unclear here since the IPG says:
Originally posted by IPG 1.4:
Actions that caused a player to learn the identity of cards at a specific location in the library are reversed by shuffling those cards into the random portion of the library unless they were subsequently drawn; cards being returned to the library as part of the backup should not be shuffled at that stage if their identity was known to only one player.
The two cards revealed by Karn are known to both players, so they aren't clearly covered by the second sentence, but they also are no longer in “a specific location in the library” and arguably have been “drawn” so they also aren't clearly covered by the first sentence.
There are two possible interpretations here that I can think of:
1) Strict reading of the first sentence, broad reading of the second. Even though the cards are known to both players, they are still being returned to the library and should not be considered random. Return the two revealed cards to the top of Library in a random order.
2) Broad reading of the first sentence, strict reading of the second. The library was random before Karn's activation, and will been returned to that state. Since the cards become known to both players, they can be safely shuffled away without further damage to the game state.
Which remedy is the most appropriate one?
March 26, 2019 06:14:27 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Uncertified)
- Barriere, Canada
Backing up Karn, Scion of Urza?
Disclaimer: I'm assuming you intend this as a discussion topic. If you wanted an official answer, my mistake. I am not an official source.
I don't believe either of your interpretations are correct. You're reading the two parts of one sentence as though they were unrelated. To phrase that line in another way:
“The only time we don't backup cards from hand by shuffling them away is when they were known to only one player.”
Cards that went from the library to a non-hand zone along with cards that went from the library to the hand in a manner that was visible to both players are shuffled away.
In my understanding, the point of a backup is to return the game state to as close as possible to what it was before. Backing up cards to the top of the library does not accomplish this, since now they're known to the player when they should have been unknown. However we also don't want to shuffle away random cards from a player's hand, as that is extremely disruptive and can give the player a large advantage or disadvantage just based on a roll of the dice. That's why we put unknown cards from the hand on top of the library. When the card is known to both players, and more importantly, known to the judge, there's no risk of shuffling away the wrong card. We know exactly which one isn't supposed to be in the hand, so the reasons for wanting to put it on top of the library don't apply.
I wouldn't get tripped up over the exact way those cards made it into the hard, what matters is that they're there and not known to the opponent. Most methods of putting a card into a hand that isn't drawing it have it revealed to both players.
I don't believe either of your interpretations are correct. You're reading the two parts of one sentence as though they were unrelated. To phrase that line in another way:
“The only time we don't backup cards from hand by shuffling them away is when they were known to only one player.”
Cards that went from the library to a non-hand zone along with cards that went from the library to the hand in a manner that was visible to both players are shuffled away.
In my understanding, the point of a backup is to return the game state to as close as possible to what it was before. Backing up cards to the top of the library does not accomplish this, since now they're known to the player when they should have been unknown. However we also don't want to shuffle away random cards from a player's hand, as that is extremely disruptive and can give the player a large advantage or disadvantage just based on a roll of the dice. That's why we put unknown cards from the hand on top of the library. When the card is known to both players, and more importantly, known to the judge, there's no risk of shuffling away the wrong card. We know exactly which one isn't supposed to be in the hand, so the reasons for wanting to put it on top of the library don't apply.
I wouldn't get tripped up over the exact way those cards made it into the hard, what matters is that they're there and not known to the opponent. Most methods of putting a card into a hand that isn't drawing it have it revealed to both players.
Edited Isaac King (March 27, 2019 09:08:55 PM)
March 26, 2019 05:31:37 PM
- Andrew Villarrubia
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))
- USA - South
Backing up Karn, Scion of Urza?
Shuffling them away seems reasonable to me. The cards weren't “drawn,” since we have a strict definition of what drawing is. The cards also weren't known to only one player.
As you mentioned, provided the two Karn cards were random to begin with, making them two random cards again seems correct.
As you mentioned, provided the two Karn cards were random to begin with, making them two random cards again seems correct.
March 26, 2019 06:14:27 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Uncertified)
- Barriere, Canada
Backing up Karn, Scion of Urza?
Disclaimer: I'm assuming you intend this as a discussion topic. If you wanted an official answer, my mistake. I am not an official source.
I don't believe either of your interpretations are correct. You're reading the two parts of one sentence as though they were unrelated. To phrase that line in another way:
“The only time we don't backup cards from hand by shuffling them away is when they were known to only one player.”
Cards that went from the library to a non-hand zone along with cards that went from the library to the hand in a manner that was visible to both players are shuffled away.
In my understanding, the point of a backup is to return the game state to as close as possible to what it was before. Backing up cards to the top of the library does not accomplish this, since now they're known to the player when they should have been unknown. However we also don't want to shuffle away random cards from a player's hand, as that is extremely disruptive and can give the player a large advantage or disadvantage just based on a roll of the dice. That's why we put unknown cards from the hand on top of the library. When the card is known to both players, and more importantly, known to the judge, there's no risk of shuffling away the wrong card. We know exactly which one isn't supposed to be in the hand, so the reasons for wanting to put it on top of the library don't apply.
I wouldn't get tripped up over the exact way those cards made it into the hard, what matters is that they're there and not known to the opponent. Most methods of putting a card into a hand that isn't drawing it have it revealed to both players.
I don't believe either of your interpretations are correct. You're reading the two parts of one sentence as though they were unrelated. To phrase that line in another way:
“The only time we don't backup cards from hand by shuffling them away is when they were known to only one player.”
Cards that went from the library to a non-hand zone along with cards that went from the library to the hand in a manner that was visible to both players are shuffled away.
In my understanding, the point of a backup is to return the game state to as close as possible to what it was before. Backing up cards to the top of the library does not accomplish this, since now they're known to the player when they should have been unknown. However we also don't want to shuffle away random cards from a player's hand, as that is extremely disruptive and can give the player a large advantage or disadvantage just based on a roll of the dice. That's why we put unknown cards from the hand on top of the library. When the card is known to both players, and more importantly, known to the judge, there's no risk of shuffling away the wrong card. We know exactly which one isn't supposed to be in the hand, so the reasons for wanting to put it on top of the library don't apply.
I wouldn't get tripped up over the exact way those cards made it into the hard, what matters is that they're there and not known to the opponent. Most methods of putting a card into a hand that isn't drawing it have it revealed to both players.
Edited Isaac King (March 27, 2019 09:08:55 PM)
March 27, 2019 09:36:33 AM
- Andrew Keeler
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Southeast
Backing up Karn, Scion of Urza?
Originally posted by Isaac King:
Disclaimer: I'm assuming you intend this as a discussion topic. If you wanted an official answer, my mistake. I am not an official source.
I don't believe either of your interpretations are correct. You're reading the two parts of one sentence as though they were unrelated. To phrase that line in another way:
“The only time we don't backup cards from hand by shuffling them away is when they were known to only one player.”
Cards that went from the library to a non-hand zone along with cards that went from the library to the hand in a manner that was visible to both players are shuffled away.
In my understanding, the point of a backup is to return the game state to as close as possible to what it was before. Backing up cards to the top of the library does not accomplish this, since now they're known to the player when they should have been unknown. However we also don't want to shuffle away random cards from a player's hand, as that is extremely disruptive and can give the player a large advantage or disadvantage just based on a roll of the dice. That's why we put unknown cards from the hand on top of the library. When the card is known to both players, and more importantly, known to the judge, there's no risk of shuffling away the wrong card. We know exactly which one isn't supposed to be in the hand, so the reasons for wanting to put it on top of the library don't apply.
I wouldn't get tripped up over the exact way those cards made it into the hard, what matters is that they're there and not known to the opponent. Most methods of putting a card into a hand that isn't drawing it have it revealed to both players.
This matches what most judges that I talked to settled on, but there wasn't unanimity when it came up over the weekend, so I thought it worth clarifying for my own benefit.
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