Thanks everyone for the discussion this week. This scenario was widely discussed at MF Denver, and in this thread.

I want to talk about a few of our options, then the reason we chose the answer.

I think we all agree that this is Hidden Card Error for Agustin. Augustin has failed to apply the effect of his card to this draw, and it can't be corrected with publically available information. Its HCE. At the very least, our fix is going to involve revealing Agustin's hand to Neal and having Neal choose one of the cards to return to the top of the library, then correctly resolving the draw.

Game Rules Violation vs Hidden Card Error for Neal's incorrect draw is more contentious. The inspiration for this scenario was to make sure everyone had read the most recent IPG update, which includes this line in Hidden Card Error:

Originally posted by IPG 2.3 Hidden Card Error:

It is not a Hidden Card Error if the opponent acknowledges the action or controls
the continuous effect modifying the game rule that was violated.

As pointed out in this thread, and many other places, we now have to decide whether Breathstealer's Crypt's replacement effect that applies to the incorrect draw counts as a continuous effect modifying the rules of the game. Using the strictest possible interpretation, it does not. However, if we read Toby's article talking about the changes, he mentions his motivation:

Originally posted by Toby Elliott:

… This isn’t to say that a player casting Divination with a Narset out should be able to take it back, but we’d prefer the opponent to be preemptive about reminding the player of what the result was going to be before things became harder to fix. With a potential reveal of the opponent’s hand and removing their best card available, staying silent was too good, to the point where the IPG was making Narset a stronger card. …

Its fairly clear that this policy should apply to this situation, and choosing to not apply it was being overly pedantic. This was discussed in depth with the GP Head Judges at Denver and elsewhere, and the consensus was to apply the exception and treat this situation as a Game Rule Violation.

Next, we have to talk about how to fix this situation.

If we choose not to back up to the point of Neal's error, we simply apply the HCE fix described above and continue the game.

If we want to back up, I came up with 4 options that are even remotely possibilities.

1) Do a full GRV rewind, including putting cards back on top at random for both players. This doesn't apply the HCE fix to Agustin.
2) Apply the HCE fix to Agustin's hand, then rewind to Neal's draw step.
3) Rewind to Neal's draw step, then have Neal his Breathstealer's Crypt effect, then apply the HCE Fix to Agustin.
4) Apply the HCE fix to both players.

3 and 4 are clearly deviations, and I don't believe any benefit that they provide is significant enough to rationalize the deviation.

1 applies the same fix to both players, but it doesn't match the philosophy of HCE.

2 is the most rational. It applies the HCE fix and GRV fix appropriately to each player.

So we need to decide whether to rewind or not. The upside to the rewind is that the game happens naturally, but the downside is that Neal now gets the opportunity to have a turn where he knows Agustin's hand that he shouldn't have. In a format like Legacy, this can have drastic impacts on the game. The downside to not rewinding is Neal gets to keep the card he should have revealed hidden, or at least a random card hidden, and doesn't have to apply the Breathstealer's Crypt effect at all. This seems not the worst, and is a reasonable punishment for Agustin for not reminding Neal to apply the effect. We conclude that not rewinding is the best choice. Please note that the exact situation in the game can make rewinding more reasonable, and that not backing up here is at the discretion of the judge/head judge.

Finally, what infractions/penalties do we issue? Clearly HCE for Agustin, GRV for Neal. There is an argument for an additional GRV for Agustin for missing Neal's draw. Failure to Maintain Game State for Neal isn't an option since Neal pointed out Agustin's error right after it happened.

We don't issue multiple penalties for the same cause, and in this case the reason is that both players have forgotten to apply this effect. Awarding a second penalty to Agustin isn't necessary.

Agustin receives a Warning for Hidden Card Error. Neal receives a Warning for Game Rule Violation. Don't back up the game to Neal's turn, but do apply the Hidden Card Error fix to Agustin's hand by revealing it, having Neal choose a card that should have been revealed for Breathstealer's Crypt. Then if the chosen card is a creature, Agustin chooses to pay 3 life or discard that card.

Edited Joe Klopchic (July 24, 2019 02:28:08 AM)