Hello friends! The Missed Triggers Guide has an epic story for you: Theros, and all of its triggers! Its many, many triggers. Thirteen that upgrade when missed (plus one that barely dodges the upgrade path) are more than we've seen in Standard for -ages-, so be sure to check it out!

If you can, please share this guide far and wide, especially as we prepare for release weekend and a number of tournaments that will be running Competitive REL Sealed. This set is a bit more complicated than many realize, so any amount of legwork that can be done for floor judges before the event would be a help.

https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/2020/01/23/theros-beyond-death-missed-triggers-guide/

IPG 2.1
Symmetrical abilities (such as Howling Mine) may be considered usually detrimental or not depending on who is being affected.

Why are we not treating Impending Doom this way? Detrimental if it's enchanting the controller's creature, non-detrimental if it's enchanting an opponent's creature.

Originally posted by Isaac King:

IPG 2.1
Symmetrical abilities (such as Howling Mine) may be considered usually detrimental or not depending on who is being affected.

Why are we not treating Impending Doom this way? Detrimental if it's enchanting the controller's creature, non-detrimental if it's enchanting an opponent's creature.

Because it isn't a symmetrical ability and we don't look at the state of the game to determine if it's detrimental or not.

Originally posted by Alfonso Chamorro:

Because it isn't a symmetrical ability and we don't look at the state of the game to determine if it's detrimental or not.

This phrase doesn't really make sense when you take a look at Howling Mine, we have to look at the game state there to see whose turn it is and who's going to draw the card.

Regardless, my goal is not to start an argument about this, I'm sure many judges have opinions on how they'd want this to be ruled. I am simply asking for clarification from the Missed Triggers project.

This thread definitely makes me want to know what is the definition of “symmetrical” we are using.

Originally posted by Isaac King:

This phrase doesn't really make sense when you take a look at Howling Mine, we have to look at the game state there to see whose turn it is and who's going to draw the card.

Your opponent drawing a card is usually considered detrimental.
You drawing a card is not usually considered detrimental.

That's what you are looking at, you don't look the game state, you don't check how many cards are in a player library or if they control a Laboratory Maniac, you don't have to determine if in the current game state drawing a card is something that benefits the controller of the trigger ability or not, you don't need to know who is the active player, only if the trigger ability triggering for that player is usually considered detrimental or not.

Originally posted by James Do Hung Lee:

This thread definitely makes me want to know what is the definition of “symmetrical” we are using.

There is a good definition in the annotated version of the IPG

Originally posted by AIPG:

Symmetrical abilities are triggered abilities that meet two conditions. They:
1. are likely to trigger multiple times per game, triggering for different players
2. have the same effect on both players.

Technically not an official definition, but we also don't have an official definition for other terms like “game state”.

Edited Alfonso Chamorro (Jan. 27, 2020 01:35:06 PM)

Hi all: please remember that this is an announcements forum, and many people are notified about each post. Discussion about this topic is totally reasonable, but it should occur in the Competitive REL forum. For that reason, I have locked this topic. Thanks!